Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

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It is extremely frustrating to read posts where people are denying facts exist when someone very kindly has actually highlighted the parts of the report for them.

The facts are now known. I wish people would stop denying that. It seems it was a deliberate attempt to conceal them but this legal challenge means that they are now known.

And anyway, it seems that the people arguing FOR Caster weren't even claiming there is no advantage, they were saying "prove how big it is, 3, 5, 10%???, and then make a case for why that's a reasonable basis for discrimination".

CAS agreed that this was a reasonable basis for discrimination.

The facts are now known. I wish people would stop denying that. It seems it was a deliberate attempt to conceal them but this legal challenge means that they are now known.

Not only that, there was also a very clever change in the narrative. When the ruling was for Caster having to lower testosterone to compete against women the discussion was around caster being a biological woman with a rare, natural advantage. How she should “run free” in her gender-non conforming, natural way and how she was disrupting gender stereotypes in he process. This appealed to socially inclusive, compassionate people who felt that Caster was vilified unfairly for her masculine appearance and rare physical condition.

The media coverage is NOT saying - Caster is a biological man with male levels of testosterone from internal testes. When caster’s testosterone levels are reduced (even to those much higher than healthy women) Caster loses and Caster wants to keep winning.

Exactly, if Caster wants to run free, she can. Nothing is stopping her. She just wants to be allowed to compete against people who don't have her male advantage, rather than other people who do also have her male advantage, because she's not good enough to beat them.

"because she's not good enough to beat them."

That's the core problem here. She's NOT Good Enough. Run as a man then love! No? You don't want to? Why? Because you won't win? Ahhhhh.

Can't we just create intersex races? A new category?

"because she's not good enough to beat them."

Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to this one! I've heard it recently.

If Caster wants to be able to beat men, Caster just needs to try harder and put a bit of effort in.

I'm sure I saw men people saying that on twitter to women.

That can be attributed to Ellis Cashmore, who apparently knows more about elite sport than Martina Navratilova.

NotBad, it was also "Dr Beth Jones" of Loughborough University. She said it on Women's Hour, apparently women mentally limit themselves by only competing against women and if we tried harder we could overcome the disadvantages of not going through male puberty.

If Caster wants to be able to beat men, Caster just needs to try harder and put a bit of effort in.

Caster can beat probably more 99% of men in the world. Just because she can't beat all of them doesn't mean she is female. She is a biological male with biological male advantages, over women. That doesn't mean she is actually good enough to beat the most elite men.

That is very different to being female with none of those male advantages.

Not all males are capable of being an elite athlete; only, let's say, 0.001% of males can do it. However, 10 times that many men could beat elite women. So you don't quite need to be the top-top male to beat women, just very very good.

Out of interest, has anyone done an analysis of CS best ever times and where that would have put her in the equivalent male race that happenned at that event? In many of her races she looks like she wasnt even breaking a sweat. I get the impression she sometime moderates her performance (or is advised to) so that she doesnt win even more embarrassingly out in front.

Age isn't on her side to "catch up" with the men, but I do wonder if she'd trained and been trained as a man from the beginning whether she would now be an elite male runner (though not as dominant and not as bigger share of prize money and the sponsorship deals of course .....)

Caster can beat probably more 99% of men in the world

Caster’s 800m PB is 1:54.25.

The English athletics under 17 boys record is 1:50.26, Max Bergin.

The under 15 English boys record is 1:56.0, Daniel Joyce.

Semenya is a bit better than the best 15 year old school boys England has to offer.

And yes, I’ve always believed Semenya holds back, but still, would be pushed to beat 1:50

Interesting.

And that's still not that near the Women's WR which still stands from the 80's? And which itself has been easily beaten by the 17y old English boy. Wow. I'm not sure I realised just how much stronger and faster men can be because of testosterone.

Men's records
World
Kenya David Rudisha 1:40.91 (2012)
Olympic
Kenya David Rudisha 1:40.91 (2012)

Women's records
World
Czechoslovakia Jarmila Kratochvílová 1:53.28 (1983)
Olympic
Soviet Union Nadezhda Olizarenko 1:53.43 (1980)

Those school boys are probably very good.

Maybe Caster isn't able to compete with men, not all males can, as I said. Maybe Caster's condition has a partial negative impact on athletic performance.

Even if it's the latter, that doesn't mean she should be able to compete against females, because she clearly has a male advantage, even if that advantage isn't fully realised because of her condition.

The women's category isn't a category for everyone who can't compete with elite men.

But that’s a normal thing. Most schoolboy records are better than women world records. The Australian schoolboy 100m record is better than Flo Jo’s world record. It demonstrates how there is a massive difference between men and women. Boys and women. Caster would be a good male, but no where near an elite male.

As another example, I just googled “running club records” and found this, Malvern Harriers, a random running club whose men’s 800m record is 1:52 from 1972.

www.malvernharriers.com.au/history/records

But I wonder, out of the entire male population, how many men could beat Caster? I am sure its a very small percentage. Same as its a small (but slightly larger) percentage of men who can beat elite women.

Don't disagree with you at all. Women's races are for biological XX women only, not a catch all category for males who can't cut it in their own events (see Laurel Hubbard and Rachel McKinnon). As you say, not everyone can be an elite athlete (I cant even reach all my kitchen cupboards)

It's just interesting to think about and see demonstrations of just how vastly physically stronger men are or can be than women because testosterone. And a little depressing. I knew it was the case, of course, but as a physically fit, capable women who isn't an athlete and has never been in a fight I'm not sure I realised just how stark and absolute the difference was. I guess we will just have to dominate in intelligence and cunning 😁

I used to be an athlete and there is nothing more disheartening than an average-enough man completely out-muscle you without even breaking sweat!

Yes, male puberty is a hell of a benefit. All of a sud, they just leap ahead all of a sudden with no extra effort.

Yes dont they? I have male children at or around puberty and I'm actually astounded at what happens over about 6 months to a year. I dont have brothers so wasn't expecting male puberty to be so, well frankly, awe-inspiring. Boys that I used to hang upside down, tickle to death, sling around etc could easily restrain me now. One plays sports and goes to the gym, admittedly, but nothing special. He can run for 20 mins at top speed on the running machine and does so most times he goes. I did that once when I was training and it nearly killed me. And the amount they eat to fuel it! If I ate half that amount, even at 15, I'd have been seriously obese.

I wonder how many of those records that stand from the 80s are tainted by doping.

www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/sports/olympics/jarmila-kratochvilova-800-meters-record.html

If Casters times are not as good as high school boys I daresay a fair number of men would be faster, if they were athletic at all.

I think my point is yes, Semenya is better than the male population as a whole, but would be a good club runner at best. Wouldn’t be anywhere near elite level. Only by competing against women is Semenya elite.

There’s a difference before puberty. Puberty just widens the gap significantly.

The slowest time in the heats of the men's 800m in 2016 was 1.54.67. The South African runners did 1.46 and 1.49.

The Soviet Bloc women in the 80s were doped up to the eyeballs. The survivng 400m and 800m world records from that time are entirely without credibility.

Now that the Semenya case has exhausted all possible litigious routes, we can now move on. Interesting to see what happens to the other DSD athletes.

I think that it is worth pointing out agin, that all three athletes on the Women's 800m podium at Rio, had XY Karotype characteristics - Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui

we can now move on

I really wish there could be some form of reparation for those women who missed out on earnings and medals. Lynsey Sharp was vilified, but she was denied the chance to stand on the podium at an Olympics and receive a bronze medal, and watch the Union Flag being raised. I can’t imagine how she must feel now. Anger? Vindication? Resignation?