Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

I think my point is yes, Semenya is better than the male population as a whole, but would be a good club runner at best. Wouldn’t be anywhere near elite level. Only by competing against women is Semenya elite.

This is my point too.

There’s a difference before puberty. Puberty just widens the gap significantly.

Yep. There is a difference from even before they are born, so it's not only male puberty, there is obviously something else that also contributes in a minor way, probably in one of Y chromosome expressions (I think there are over 6000 differences between XX?), as that would also explain the (less significant) XY CAIS advantage.

The slowest time in the heats of the men's 800m in 2016 was 1.54.67. The South African runners did 1.46 and 1.49

If the slowest man in the Olympic heats is running at Caster speed, that does show that Caster would be more than a good club level runner if she competed in the men's category, IMO. Getting to the stage of doing Olympic heats is pretty decent in itself, surely?

"If the slowest man in the Olympic heats is running at Caster speed, that does show that Caster would be more than a good club level runner if she competed in the men's category"

I think Caster is around five seconds slower than the slowest, but I have never seen Caster run full out, or collapse exhausted at the end of a race.
A lot of people don't realise that Caster still holds the World Record for 600m.

I thought Caster's fastest time was also 1.54, same as the slowest men in the heats?

Many apologies Sonic, I was looking at the South African runner's time.
As an aside, a few years ago we invited a few friends over for a BBQ, when the World athletics championships were on the telly, and a couple of the guys (didn't know each other) used to be middle distance runners at uni, and their PB's for 800m were both around 1m 48s. They were club runners but never represented their country.

Caster Semenya: Biology trumps gender identity, says IAAF
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/49185299

From the article:

Athletics' governing body said "biology has to trump gender identity" after welcoming the decision to permit restrictions in testosterone levels of female runners.

...

"The Swiss Federal Supreme Court concludes, in a first summary examination, that Caster Semenya's appeal does not appear with high probability to be well founded," it said.

It added that there would not be "fair competition" if there were women competing with 46 XY DSD genetic make-up, which includes Semenya.

It's interesting this bbc article actually mentioned Caster is in the 46XY category.

Yes I thought so too. Is this the first time?

The slowest time in the heats of the men's 800m in 2016 was 1.54.67

Smaller countries will have fewer faster runners so will enter their best, who will probably run this time. Larger countries will have more runners to choose from.

Another quick google shows that 1.50 as a man would get you into the top 75 or so in Britain. In some countries that would be the fastest man. For comparison, Lynsey Sharp's pb is 1.57.

Yes, there will me multiple club runners around England who would look at those slowest heat times and say to themselves they are good enough to compete in the heats of the Olympics and beat the best that the Refugee Olympic team has to offer. This is the level Semenya is at.

And that is why Semenya doesn’t want to “run free” in the appropriate sex category.

"And that is why Semenya doesn’t want to “run free” in the appropriate sex category"

Not quite fair, I don't think there is an appropriate category for CS. Quite clearly she has male advantages over women, but simultaneously is not fully male (for lack of a better phrase) to compete on even footing with men.

She is a tragic case.

At any rate, the point is and always was - we have the free category of men. And then we created a 'women's' category in order to have women who are naturally disadvantaged compared to males, have their own sport. With this comes a definition of who can run in that.

And the comment by the IAAF is BIG, because CS isn't necessarily about gender identity and yet that is the words they used. "Biology trumps gender identity". They do not want the US stuff that is happening more and more with boys beating girls at high school sport.

The category mentioned above is not an 'identity' category, but based on the physiological differences between females and males. And in the end, that will win out. Also in relation to the bullshit IOC ruling of < 10nmol/L testosterone for a year which is based on biased, shitty, low sample so-called 'studies'.

Just because Semenya’s external genitalia didn’t develop fully, it doesn’t mean that from a sporting and biological perspective, Semenya isn’t male. A male whose ears didn’t form correctly is still male. This is no different. It’s just that a fully formed penis is more of a “manhood” symbol. Testes ✔️ sensitive to testosterone ✔️ male puberty ✔️, therefore should compete in male category. Cosmetics have nothing to do with it.

The reason Semenya can’t compete on an even footing with men is because in the grand scheme of male 800m runners, she’s good but not good enough. That’s the only reason.

And I don’t think she’s a tragic case, not any more. It’s been known for 10 years what the diagnosis is, women have been robbed in that time. Semenya knew all this, and comments recently show she doesn’t care.

but simultaneously is not fully male (for lack of a better phrase) to compete on even footing with men.

In what way?

We dont know how developed or not CS genitals are, whether they developed more at puberty, as is often the case with 5ARD or whether she has had any kind of corrective surgery to make them look more typically one sex or the other. That's really only her business and genitals have nothing to do with running.

The only relevant thing for athletics is whether she has systemic testosterone levels in the male or female range and whether she is androgen sensitive i.e her receptors respond to testosterone (unlike in in CAIS). This has been tested and found to be in the male range and androgen sensitive which means she would have experienced male puberty. That's all that's relevant to elite athletics.

Just because Semenya’s external genitalia didn’t develop fully, it doesn’t mean that from a sporting and biological perspective, Semenya isn’t male. A male whose ears didn’t form correctly is still male. This is no different. It’s just that a fully formed penis is more of a “manhood” symbol. Testes ✔️ sensitive to testosterone ✔️ male puberty ✔️, therefore should compete in male category. Cosmetics have nothing to do with it.

Exactly this!

This whole thing is very symptomatic of our society which says that anyone who is not enough of a manly-man is "other" and therefore gets pumped into the women's category. In sport (elsewhere too, but sticking with sport for now) consideration needs to be the opposite: anyone who is not an XX woman needs to remain outside of the category that exists solely for XX women, because that category needs to be protected and very restricted.

Quite clearly she has male advantages over women, but simultaneously is not fully male (for lack of a better phrase) to compete on even footing with men.

Men don't run with their penis.

Where do they leave them. Is there a penis locker place?

"but simultaneously is not fully male (for lack of a better phrase) to compete on even footing with men."

Maybe, if "she" tried a bit harder , that seems to be what women are told to do when a male bodied person competes against them.

It added that there would not be "fair competition" if there were women competing with 46 XY DSD genetic make-up, which includes Semenya.

But women DO have to compete against 46 XY DSD athletes, as well as those who don't have DSDs but merely claim to 'feel like' women. All male athletes have to do to gain entrance into female athletics is to lower their testosterone to a level that is still considerably above the female norm.

I can't agree MrGHardy that recognition of physiological differences will win out. At the moment the IAAF is using testosterone levels as a proxy for sex, which is still very unfair. There appears to be no momentum within athletics for protecting female-only competition, only for maintaining a testosterone limit.

DonkeySkin - I totally agree with your post. The sports governing bodies have all looked at athlete's current testosterone levels, instead of looking at the indisputable lifetime advantages which male athletes have gained by going through puberty.

Since Semenya has been through male puberty and has all the other attributes of a male body, it is not fair that females should have to race against her.

Shockingly enough, Caster is now switching to a sport where she's allowed to retain the full extent of the advantage her Y chromosome and Male puberty gives her. She's started football training with JVW FC in South Africa.

Not content with stealing women's running medals and records, CS now wants to take over women's football: www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/caster-semenya-starts-new-journey-after-joining-football-team

I'll be interested to see if she's actually got any significant footballing skills, or if the plan is just to rely on testosterone and speed.

But that sadly has a high chance of working. Caster is athletically so superior that at least at local level will be sure to dominate.

I'll be interested to see if she's actually got any significant footballing skills, or if the plan is just to rely on testosterone and speed.

I remember in the interview that was posted here she said she grew up playing football with the boys and not with the silly girls who were just "soft and boring". So she is probably decent