Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

Caster’s supporters want us to think (I believe) that she is an XX woman with “high testosterone.” Whereas I think Caster is genetically male.

Based on that I agree with this outcome, while feeling sympathy for Caster.

By “socially” a woman, I mean that Caster’s family thought she was a girl so gave her a girl’s name and raised her as a girl. In old interviews, her family used female terms. All it means in practice is that I use she/her/ woman.

Therefore, taking a conservative approach, to allow DSD athletes to compete in the gender with which they identify as far as possible without restriction, the new Regulations only apply to track events between 400m and one mile (and only to international competitions). However, the revised Regulations expressly confirm that the IAAF Health & Science Department will keep this under review. If future evidence or new scientific knowledge indicates that there is good justification to expand or narrow the number of events affected by the Regulations, it will propose such revisions to the IAAF Council.
So we wait until Caster and fellow DSDers take the top slots in the longer distances, destroying other athletes' careers. Then, make a decision. What a farce.

Is that based on that video clip in that other thread? I recall she didn’t come across as very likeable in that. But how do people know how she sees herself?

Is there not a wider problem that the IAAF is mindful of? Many athletes have complained about running against her. If the IAAF didn’t do anything it would greatly damage the idea of women competing in sport. They didn’t see a level playing field and it will start to put them off competing. There are also concerns about a cyclist who is now competing as a woman and this issue isn’t going to go away. As women’s sport has taken years to get recognition, it would be a major concern if many talented women just gave up competing or didn’t bother with certain sports or distances at athletics.

So we wait until Caster and fellow DSDers take the top slots in the longer distances, destroying other athletes' careers. Then, make a decision. What a farce.

This.

Leaving behind yet more world etc records in women's athletics that natal XX female athletes can only aspire to.

FeministCat Huh?
I assume the poster meant to say "testosterone blockers" but missed out a word.
CS has been expected to take drugs to lower their T levels. I think they should be able to compete unmedicated but in a different category (read not a women's category).

Unfortunately CS has already decided to just complete in another women's category. It's a shambles that the ruling only applies to the 400m - 1 mile.
CS quote "because I have won everything I ever wanted"

"Yes I regard someone in Caster’s position as genetically male, but socially a woman."

I recall that when CS got married, they wore traditional male attire. So what? Many butch lesbians do the same.

But ... I also recall an interview with CS's father in which he explained how CS and his male relatives they had taken cattle to the bride's village to offer to the bride's parents - a traditional ritual reserved for the groom and the men of the family.

I don't see how this squares with being 'socially a woman'.

I do feel great sympathy for CS. I can't imagine their childhood was easy or comfortable. But as someone who could potentially father a child through sperm aspiration I cannot get my head around them being able to race as a woman.

Semenya is biologically and genetically a man. She just has undescended testes.

She has gone through male puberty. She has no ovaries or uterus.

Case closed, then. It's a sad story, but men can't compete against women - it isn't fair.

Parlympians are not necessarily 'disabled' however you might define that term.

They are 'Elite athletes with impairment.'

Sarah Storey is missing a few fingers. Ellie Simmonds is short.

Whether you consider internal testes an impairment is a question. (To which the answer might be, Why not remove them in that case?)

My sister’s girlfriend asked our Dad for his blessing before proposing on bended now with a ring... as traditionally done by the man. Does this make her a bloke? No, so I don’t see why Caster’s cows would.

I agree she is biologically male (with a DSD), and that female sports should be protected, but I still use she/her/woman as she was raised a girl.

Yes I’ve seen the videos, she doesn’t come across great but so what?

End derail/

i'd advise reading through the ruling if you can, it's very illuminating. The first part id the basis of CS appeal and the second part is the IAAF's position. It think it clearly shows that the IAAF reasoning is compelling and they are actually doing all they can to allow biological males with a DSD such as CS to be elite women athletes but why sex-based segregation has to happen in elite sports - they clearly demonstrate that biological males would win qualify and win every single event otherwise. Is that what anyone wants?

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

Incidentally I’ve heard that Caster and her wife are expecting (or have welcomed?) their first baby, but I can’t seem to find anything official online.

I've read the full ruling. It is indeed illuminating.

Personally I think it's fair, because the IAAF are in a difficult position. Not just politically but based on the facts - that CS most likely entered the sport as a female competitor in good faith, as that was her legal sex and what she believed to be her biological sex at the time. The statement does make it clear that the IAAF and CAS consider her to be biologically male, and I think them stating so is good.

They are trying to accommodate her by giving her choices. That she doesn't like any of them is, frankly, her problem. And this is where I lose sympathy with her and where she crosses somewhat into TW delusional territory. She objects to being called biologically male but the medical evidence is there.

And as someone who has menopausal symptoms at the moment, I did eye-roll when reading that she didn't like the menopausal-like symptoms she got when taking meds to lower her testosterone. Woman's biology comes with lots of challenges, but she's wanting to pick and choose.

Sorry, I posted without re-reading my comment last night.

I meant that I agree with CS that she shouldn't take testosterone if she doesn't want to.

But also that the decision not to take it should impact on her participation in women's events.

Bloody hell! I meant 'testosterone suppressant' drugs!

i.e the pill, like lots of women have to take to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Funny how biological men want all the good bits of being female like winning and boobs but aren't too keen on the bits that make you put on weight, feel ill, be in pain, become invisible and worthless (I too had to suppress and eye-roll at the horror of a woman having to undergo menopause symptoms).

I think part of the reason its important for the sports bodies to rule carefully based on physiology and biology in these cases is because it puts less pressure on individuals to socially identify one way or the other.

If the rule is clear and across the board, someone with a DSD will know where they have to compete, and it won't matter how they have been raised, how they feel or where they seem to fit in socially. I wouldn't have the rule about taking a drug to suppress testosterone either, I think that creates far too much pressure.

Haven't read it all yet, but I do actually agree with some of Castor's arguments. Namely:

• the 5 nmol/L is completely arbitrary
• suggesting a legally and socially female athlete with a DSD run with the men would out them as having a DSD
• if the test for whether a women has a DSD is in fact based on how masculine they look, then that is subjective and likely to involve racial bias. Obviously inspecting someones genitals is also unacceptable.

I still don't believe it's fair for her to compete. From her expert witnesses though it does sound like the IAAF has treated her really badly over the last decade.

I don't think the subjective threshold is particularly how 'masculine' an athlete looks.

It's more 'does this person have the same body type as other women'?

CS says that this has been an issue for her in races since childhood - having to 'prove' that she's female. Lots of people expressing the same 'subjective' view over a number of years does suggest that it's not just 'in the eye of the beholder' but something about the athlete themselves.

I also don't think decisions to question an individual athlete's chromosomes/DSD status are made lightly. It's not that she's being 'picked on'; it's that her physique is clearly very different to that of the women that she is competing against which causes people to ask questions.

I don't really understand why the IAAF regulations only apply to international competitions tbh. Athletes qualify for international teams through national championships - would biological women only get a chance to compete internationally if people with a dsd decided to abide by the regulations and take T suppressors? And if they refuse, biological women have a chance?

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea that the choices that people other than women make should determine whether women compete in a particular event or meeting.

But it's possible that I've misread the IAAF's statement.

I don’t know the specifics of Caster’s condition but if her wife is pregnant, and the sperm was taken from one of Caster’s undescended testes, that’s really going to make her defenders’ attempts to characterise her as a woman with an intersex condition instead of a man with an intersex condition look stupid.

on bended knee* not “now”!

Okay so people on T are objecting to Caster being described as (biologically, not socially or re gender identity) male. I appreciate how sensitive this all is, but there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding out there on the basic facts.

I think TRAs want the narrative that a person with XY can be female. Although Caster’s situation is utterly different from theirs.

I think TRAs want the narrative that a person with XY can be female. Although Caster’s situation is utterly different from theirs.

That's it, just keep the water nice and muddy.

The TRAs will co-opt anyone or any cause into their narrative.

If anyone in the public eye demonstrates that sex will out, regardless of the person's socialisation, legal status and even physical representation it's CS, but they're too tunnel visioned to see that.

The TRAs have NO arguments. All they have is repeating but not explaining daft mantras like TWAW and being 'offended' as often as possible, especially about misgendering, the greatest crime of all.

It is a sensitive and delicate issue. CS is socially and legally a female, but her biology isn't. They are the facts of the situation.

Biology isn't bigotry and women don't have Y chromosomes.