Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

The specifics of her (or anybody's) body is irrelevant, The fact that she has XY chromosomes and is androgen sensitive is all that matters and has clearly been defined by the IAAF. Androgen sensitive in someone with XY chromosomes means that her body produces testosterone and DHT and responds to it i.e received the virilizing effect of testosterone/DHT at or around puberty which can only be received by somone with testosterone-producing testes tissues. And her published testosterone levels as an adult show that this is still the case. Plus she would be able to compete under the IAAF ruling if it wasn't - or if she lowered them to an amount which is still much higher that that of XX women.

You could argue that her DSD might mean she doesn't produce quite as much testosterone as an XY male without a DSD - but it is still way, way more than that of any XX woman, even the most "genetic outlier"

I'm not sure that I feel that sorry for CS anymore. She has made a comfortable life for herself (and her coaches, her advisors, her family, her village) from the racing she has done for the last 10 years. It is clear that it was a deliberate strategy to put her in female races despite the fact that her advisors, at least, knew she had a DSD (understandable as a way out of poverty, but hardly fair to the individual or other compatitors). Even as it stands today, she still has a lot of earning potential (autobiographies, sports commentator, TV personality, coaching and mentoring, charitable foundations, intersex activist). There are people in SA, as well as other people with DSDs, in a lot worse position than she is (and a lot worse off financially).

Greeve what do you not get? Caster could not challenge this unless they had the specific condition listed. What are you not getting? Be very specific.

she has XY chromosomes and is androgen sensitive

Greeve, do you understand what the above means?

Like whether she is XY or XX

if you are being serious now, which I don't think you can be, I suggest googling sex determination in humans or looking at a GCSE Biology textbook.

Finished reading. I don't believe that anyone could read the judgment and claim that they (a) know for sure what condition she has and (b) know how it has affected her. The experts quoted in the report certainly can't say definitivel how she is affected, so I'm not sure how people on here can.

It clearly talks about "women with ... " "athletes with ..." or "people with ..." She is not the only athlete with DSD mentioned in the judgment and other DSDs are mentioned as well. I think it's pretty clear which type of DSD she has, but we do not know the specifics - these aren't all or nothing disorders. There's a lot of disagreement about how individuals are affected. We shouldn't jump to conclusions. The case covers the whole regime for dealing with athletes with DSDs not just Caster.

It's also very clear from the judgment that there are serious disagreements about the science - Including how different naturally occurring hormones affect different people in adulthood. Para 473 onwards has a breakdown of where there are areas of scientific agreement and disagreement, if anyone's interested.

I don't know why people are pretending this is simple. If this wasn't complicated there would be no case. Pretending it's simple helps no one.

Someone who was born and raised a girl cannot become a man in any meaningful sense, even if they come across as masculine to someone else.

I don't think we're going to agree on this. For me, a girlhood is a large part of what makes a women.

Someone who was born and raised a girl cannot become a man in any meaningful sense
CS is a male with a DSD. That's all there is to it, really. It doesn't actually matter what you or anyone else thinks. It's a fact, not an opinion.

Someone who was born and raised a girl cannot become a man in any meaningful sense
Well that nicely paves the way for pushy parents to 'raise their boy as a girl' and pretty much guarantee sporting success and all the riches that come with it. Just what we need.

"I don't think we're going to agree on this. For me, a girlhood is a large part of what makes a women."

No, what happens after conception and in the womb is a major part of what makes a woman.
It isn't down to pink clothes and long, plaited hair, it is down to chromosomes - XX Chromosomes.

Someone who was born and raised a girl cannot become a man in any meaningful sense

I agree that a lot of what we share as women is our socialisation. But CS's character and personality and life experiences are not the crucial factor here, it's solely about biology and physical capability.

Someone who was born and raised a girl cannot become a man in any meaningful sense

I agree what matters is CS's biology. But I'm puzzled that someone 'raised as a girl' wore a boy's school uniform and was seen as a boy at school....

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/is-she-a-he-caster-semenyas-headteacher-says-413833

The headteacher of the school where controversial athlete Caster Semenya graduated has admitted he thought she was a boy.

Eric Modiba, head of the Nthema Secondary School, said that it wasn’t until Grade 11 that he realised she was a girl.

He said that Caster wore the male version of the uniform to school - yellow shirts and grey pants – while all the other girls wore reddish-brown skirts and yellow shirts.

In an interview with South Africa's Beeld newspaper Mr Modiba said: "She was always rough and played with the boys. She liked soccer and she wore pants to school. She never wore a dress.

"It was only in Grade 11 that I realised she's a girl."

For me, a girlhood is a large part of what makes a women

What is a girlhood? What makes someone a woman: adult human female. The female part is crucial.

In layman's terms, isn't CS a man with a really, really undeveloped penis? Therefore looked female as no protrusion at birth but, in all other ways, is a man?

NB Not a scientist/medical person but this is how I had it explained to me.

frazzled1 everyone knows that Caster is a man, except for some bizarre reason we're not supposed to say so?
Well go and fuck yourselves, kristanbul and the other enablers/handmaids/MRAs on this thread, Caster is a male with XY chromosomes and therefore he is a man.
My solidarity and support is to every woman who lost a medal or ranking to Caster Semanya.

When the world started to raise eyebrows, the response was this:

I think it's pretty clear which type of DSD she has, but we do not know the specifics - these aren't all or nothing disorders. There's a lot of disagreement about how individuals are affected. We shouldn't jump to conclusions.

No, we should just watch the races again.

In that second link, Niyonsaba who came in second also has a DSD.

kistanbul

Finished reading. I don't believe that anyone could read the judgment and claim that they (a) know for sure what condition she has and (b) know how it has affected her. The experts quoted in the report certainly can't say definitivel how she is affected, so I'm not sure how people on here can

FFS. LOOK at the section on the ruling that I have highlighted above. The panel have made a judgement on 5-ARD. Why do you think they’ve done this? There are whole sections arguing about the relevance of DHT, which is only relevant if the diagnosis is 5-ARD. The IAAF have submitted a whole section on why they think 5-ARD gives athletes an advantage. Experts arguing FOR the IAAF decided it does give an advantage, those arguing for Semenya argued, unsurprisingly, that they didn’t think it did. Cas agreed it did.

Read it again. Slowly this time. There is disagreement only because it was in Semenya’s interests to find people who would argue she doesn’t have an advantage.

There is disagreement only because it was in Semenya’s interests to find people who would argue she doesn’t have an advantage.

Because, you know, that’s how trials work. Two people present their sides and then there is a judgement.

kistanbul why do you think that male elite athletes are bigger, faster and stronger than their female elite counterparts? Why do you think that these sex based differences in performance become evident at puberty?

Every so often I read up on DSD and am reminded that the criteria for being classed as female is the lack of a clearly defined penis. Without one you are “not male”. Tells you everything really, Male= defined penis anything else must be female rather than acknowledging that women have their own specific biology which is much more complex than a hole available to put a penis in. This lead to previous generations having their genitals unnecessarily operated on to fit a more female presentation which has been a big concern for the intersex community and they have campaigned fiercely against it.

This article link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11673-018-9876-3 - which has a specific agenda contains a rather disturbing section about 4 athletes found to be XY DSD who were “offered” surgery to allow them to continue to compete in women’s sports.

Here is the published medical report referred to
academic.oup.com/jcem/article/98/6/E1055/2536727

There is an interesting paragraph in the first article about the harmful effects of reducing testosterone and from removal of gonads in XY DSD. Presumably these harmful effects would affect anyone XY who was reducing testosterone.

Which is why I don’t think Semenya should be required to reduce testosterone, or be allowed to compete at other distances with ongoing normal male testosterone levels. Nothing is stopping Semenya from competing in the male category.

NotBad

Yes. I think allowing that kind of thing tends to put pressure on the athletes to modify their bodies just to compete, and that's not really a great thing in the bigger picture even if it would be tempting.

The whole thing is kind of crazy, when you look at it objectively.

Caster is an XY biological male, with male levels of testosterone.

The obvious advantages of testosterone with regard to athletic performance are known.

Women produce testosterone at levels significantly below men so in order to compete with women Caster - as a male - has to reduce their testosterone levels to be shoehorned into another sex category. This reduction is still over twice as high as most healthy women’s testosterone levels.

Caster doesn’t want to do this and prefers to “run free” with male levels of testosterone. This is supposed to be accepted by female athletes because Caster wasn’t obviously male at birth.

Caster is not biologically female but it’s unfair for Caster not to run against and discrimination and racism and in feminist. Caster’s opponents who will lose over and over are not as important as Caster.

*should read:

Caster is not biologically female but it’s unfair for her not to run against women because of discrimination and racism and because feminism.