Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

Update on this ongoing story

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/30/caster-semenya-blocked-defending-800-metres-title-athletics-world-championships?CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
Caster Semenya blocked from competing at world championships
• Athlete expresses disappointment after court ruling
• Swiss supreme court reverses earlier judgment

Caster Semenya has expressed disappointment over a court ruling which means she will be prevented from defending her 800m title at the world athletics championships in Doha next month.

The Swiss supreme court has reversed a ruling that suspended a regulation imposed by the sport’s governing body, the IAAF, regarding testosterone levels pending her appeal.

The ruling effectively means South Africa’s Semenya would be obliged to submit to hormone-reducing medication – something she has resolutely refused to consider – in order to continue to compete. In a statement Semenya said: “I am very disappointed to be kept from defending my hard-earned title but this will not deter me from continuing my fight for the human rights of all of the female athletes concerned.”

I believe this is the last ruling that was available to Semenya and it hasn't gone in her favour. I think it's the conclusion of the matter before the championships.

In a statement, the IAAF said: “We understand the Swiss federal tribunal will be issuing its full decision on this order [on Wednesday] and the IAAF will comment once the tribunal makes its reasoning public.”

It's the only fair outcome. It is unfortunate for CS that their DSD was not diagnosed prenatally like it would have been in the UK, but many things in life are unfair, and CS cannot trample over the rights of genetically female athletes to make themself feel better.

CS should have stepped down as soon as diagnosed as XY with undescended testicles.

Maybe this ruling is also a step in the right direction towards banning other XY athletes from women's sport.... looking at you RMcK.

Good news for women.
And I agree, that it’s sad for CS that they wasn’t diagnosed much earlier.

If CS really is XY and has internal testes then thats 2 of the 3 primary sex factors being male so technically should be classed as such (April Ashley case) So the fact CS was even allowed to compete is female is questionable.

We know CS has XY chromosomes and is a genetic male with the intersex condition 5 alpha reductase deficiency, it was in the recent ruling.

Maybe this ruling is also a step in the right direction towards banning other XY athletes from women's sport.... looking at you RMcK.

Yes possibly, although saying one XY person with testes will be eligible as long as they take testosterone lowering drugs may not be the precedent we wanted. Its been said repeatedly DSD is not trans, but try explaining that to the TRAs.

Lowering testosterone will not reduce cardiac output, lung capacity, or oxygen carrying capacity. It will not change the pelvis or shoulders, or the carrying angle of the limbs. The male will retain all the advantages he obtained by going through puberty, and he should never be allowed to compete against women, however he identifies himself and however low his testosterone level.

Very sad for Caster, but this is the right decision.

(well, in absence of a XX-only category, it's the right decision.)

I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport.

I hope it won't be. People with DSD deserve bespoke solutions, unrelated to the TRA agenda.

I don't know what the fair solution is. I know it's not to have masculinised people or male people competing against women but beyond that I don't know.

I do know that intersex people have asked repeatedly not to be dragged into trans debates and not to have DSD conflated with GD.

We can't blame TRAs for doing this if we do the same.

This person is a biological male and does not belong in female sports. I wish some of the sympathy directed towards them in the media was instead directed towards the actually female athletes who have missed out because of this person being allowed to compete.

I think for women's sports the line needs to be drawn somewhere and at the very least it needs to exclude anyone with an SRY gene and a significant androgen response.

My gut feeling is that DSD XY CAIS should compete in the women's event because, although they still seem to have an advantage, it's not huge. I think the debate should be between that and strictly XX (obviously with men with XX and SRY gene excluded). But women with PAIS I don't feel that can ever be considered fair. Even though I have enormous sympathy for them as individuals.

My gut feeling is that DSD XY CAIS should compete in the women's event because, although they still seem to have an advantage, it's not huge.

I agree BUT if the only way XY athletes who are androgen responsive and have benefited from some form of male puberty are kept out of women’s sport is to have a blanket “no XY” rule then I could live with that. Especially as CAIS athletes are still over-represented in elite sport c.f. the general population.

I hope it won't be. People with DSD deserve bespoke solutions,
My gut feeling is that DSD XY CAIS should compete in the women's event because, although they still seem to have an advantage, it's not huge

Why? Plenty of people cannot compete at the top level because of the bodies they were born with. We watch top tier athletes because they are exceptional, not because they've had the rules bent at the expense of the exceptional.
Oscar Pistorius had legs that involved technological advantage and he wanted to compete against athletes without that technological advantage, he was told No. Why are Women being told that an advantage which is not usual to the Sexed category must be accommodated when Pistorius was told No you can't cheat against Men, it wouldn't be fair?
Sport at the top level is not about letting everyone have a go to be inclusive. It's about the best

FeministCat and others, where is your evidence that Caster ‘lives as a man’? I have never seen anything from Caster herself to suggest that she views herself as male. I see it get thrown around a lot, mainly as an excuse to be cruel. Others upthread have pointed out that it’s hurtful to those with a similar intersex condition. I also agree that it perpetuates the notion that women must be feminine- you seem to know little of lesbian subculture.

Pota2 - watch the video referred to upthread. Caster themselves refers to girls as they.

Can’t see a link to a video but calling women and girls ‘they’ or ‘them’ is no indicator that the speaker considers themselves a man. I do it all the time rather than saying ‘we’. Had Caster not had invasive medical tests as part of her sporting career, she would likely have gone her whole life thinking she was a woman, as would other suffers of DSD. Insisting on using male pronouns for them (and i assume you would treat all people with DSD the same as Caster) seems really unnecessary and cruel.

No one is saying male pronouns should be used, merely pointing out that the only argument that people can legitimately make for Semenya being allowed to compete against women is because she “lives as a woman” and that this may not be true. It may be, but it may not be.

And I highly doubt Semenya would have gone through life never knowing. Even if she’d never made it as an athlete and stayed in a poor part of SA, with even the least available healthcare, surely someone would have been able to figure out why Semenya has never had a period. Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency.

Had Caster not had invasive medical tests as part of her sporting career, she would likely have gone her whole life thinking she was a woman, as would other suffers of DSD.

That’s not true for 5 alpha reductase deficiency. At puberty there would be virilisation and a lack of female secondary sexual characteristics.

If I found out I had undescended testes, I wouldn’t suddenly automatically think of myself as a man. This is very different to a transwoman ‘living as a woman’. This is someone with no penis who was raised and socialised female. Unless Caster comes out and says to use male pronouns, people who insist on using them because of her condition are just being dicks.

And the lack of penis and existence of female genitalia would definitely mean that Caster would never be accepted as a man either. So she is now trapped in some limbo according to the ones who insist on calling her a man. Neither man nor woman. It’s a shame that there can’t be more sympathy towards people with this condition (and this comment has nothing to do with competing in sport and everything to do with pronoun use before anyone jumps down my throat).

pota but you said she’d have likely gone her whole life thinking she was a woman. That’s different to not “thinking of herself as a man”. Also, lack of a penis isn’t really the same as having female genitalia either. After puberty there’d likely be some changes to the poorly formed penis, resulting in its resemblance to a clitorus lessening. There’d be an under formed, blind “vagina” and no uterus along with testosterone-producing internal testes, a male pelvis and masculine body shape.

Not a single part of caster’s body is female.

The default position for a male with underdeveloped male genitals should be, “Fine, compete against women”.

*shouldn’t be

lilmishap why have you merged part of my post with part of Sonic's into the same quote? We're not saying the same thing.

She would have known at puberty with 5ARD. You dont know whether she has a penis or not or ambiguous genitalia or whether she has had corrective surgery. There is plenty of evidence that she lives pretty much as a man. She refers to women and girls as weak and boring. She wore the boys uniform, not the girls, throughout secondary school.