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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children

721 replies

EweSurname · 07/04/2019 22:56

Looks like it's dropped!

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
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ChattyLion · 14/04/2019 09:18

Apologies. Article is not ‘written by’ ignorant students at all. I should have said it is an article, ‘which quotes’ ignorant authoritatian views about some very important academic research.

Heneghan has stood by his comments, saying: “the development of these interventions should occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental.

“There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition.”

R0wantrees · 14/04/2019 09:33

Chatty I struggle to imagine any other patient group/support organisation who on reading reports of serious Duty of Care & Safeguarding whistle blown concerns from senior healthcare professionals call for mass reporting to IPSO rather than engagement:

Oxford SU LGBTQ+ Campaign
(extract of statement quoted in article above)
“Conspicuously absent from both pieces are the voices of transgender people who have used the services provided by GIDS. Ignoring the perspective of the people who matter most in this issue, transgender children, is entirely unbalanced reporting. As such, both pieces fail to contribute to any kind of representative discussion on gender dysphoria, perpetuating only a transphobic editorial line.

“We ask all members of the LGBTQ+ Community and allies to complain to ISPO. This takes 5 minutes (link below). We believe the articles violates Point 12 of the Editor’s Code and is discriminatory to the trans community.“

This specific complaint has featured prominantly amongst other TRA groups & prominant campaigners.

ChattyLion · 14/04/2019 09:49

In Heneghans quote that I bolded above, I think the ‘quality of life’ concerns that he points out are interesting: that makes absolute sense but I hadn’t seen it specified in that way before. But QoL is a measurable thing by some standards.

I wonder what he is placing under that heading. Maybe being a permanent medical patient? Loss of natural fertility? loss of sexual response and function? And/or other things..?

R0wantrees · 14/04/2019 10:11

But QoL is a measurable thing by some standards

YY HRQoL is used as a measure within decisions about funding decisions for new drug treatments/interventions especially in for example cancer treatments.

With regards this context, I would expect that the emerging studies & information from longer term experiences/detransitioners will be especially relevent. Long term mental health & emotional well being should I hope be a key focus.

R0wantrees · 14/04/2019 10:16

Transgender Trend summation of safeguarding breaches in lobby group material going into schools including:

 Promising confidentiality to a child
 Parental Alienation
Promoting use of off label drugs and minimising harms
 Erosion of sexual boundaries

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Safeguarding-Concerns-Transgender-Schools-Guidance.pdf

Thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559214-Transgender-Trend-Schools-Guidance-Safeguarding-Concerns

ChattyLion · 14/04/2019 10:52

YY R0

Exactly. Can you imagine (pick any group of patients..) eg cancer patients or stroke patients or ANY other patient body EVER looking at serious academic research concerns about outcomes for their fellow patients and trying to silence the experts who want to investigate it?

Most patient groups dedicate themselves to raising money to funding research and getting academics interested in their cause to look into it by by funding research programmes- look at something like Cancer Research UK, British Heart Foundation, the Association of Medical Research charities etc there are literally thousands of these charities doing this and medical research is one of the top causes for the public to donate to in the UK year in year.

So what the actual fuck is going on here?

Honestly, to me this is when it’s so transparent that this lobby is just a political rights project to undermine women and children’s rights. The political argument relies for validation on the existence of ‘trans kids’ and their apparent need for drastic physical intervention as opposed to intensive psychological support. Or just being told it’s OK to be lesbian or gay.

The rush to affirmation and silencing of research needs even being talked about is disgusting. They truly couldn’t give a fuck about those kids or they would want the kids’ clinical and emotional outcomes, emotional needs, experiences, any possible alternative treatments etc to be researched as much as possible. They would be calling for as much talking therapy as possible to be offered urgently, before moving on any kid on to any physical approach to transition like blockers, hormones, or surgery.

And in this particular case- The irony of University students trying to silence University academics from raising concerns about permanent reductions in cognition for children. Let Them Eat fucking Cake, hey.

Pretty unlikely once these Oxford students have grown up and moved on, that the kids being put on cognition-destroying puberty blocking medication since the age of 10 could ever aspire to be a woke Oxford student too, isn’t it.

And what do we think those kids would say if they were asked about their experiences of growing up like this? About their quality of life today, wearing a constricting binder that stops them from exerting themselves in any way, possibly breaking their ribs? or having daily injections so they can undergo a surgical egg retrieval before going back on to cross-sex hormones? or enduring the brain fog of blockers? And bone aches or whatever else.

If the trans lobby and their ignorant student handmaidens get their way then we’ll never ask these girls and boys and we’ll never know. That’s what silencing actually looks like. TRA and woke idiots denying child medical patients any voice. Denying children the best up to date evidence based care for their needs.

Honestly the TRA lobby with its fucking glitter and rainbows and fake human rights sympathy are like those cosseted generals back in safety at HQ sending the troops off to battle. It’s absolutely shameful.

Needmoresleep · 14/04/2019 10:55

Chatty, thanks for that.

The last sentence from the Oxford SU LGBTQ+ is chilling

We ask all members of the LGBTQ+ Community and allies to complain to ISPO. This takes 5 minutes (link below). We believe the articles violates Point 12 of the Editor’s Code and is discriminatory to the trans community.

and perhaps links up to the proposed legislation described here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559180-Off-topic-but-relevant-Former-Guardian-Editor-in-MOS-on-proposed-controls-to-unacceptable-internet-content

If an Oxford professor cannot question policy within his specific research area without being labelled transphobic, what would an ordinary mother concerned about someone from one of the more arcane bits of the Stonewall trans umbrella do if she feels her child's safety may be compromised. not least if all those articulate Oxford SU LGBTQ+ s are rearing to rush off and silence people.

This consultation matters www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-white-paper

LangCleg · 14/04/2019 11:13

Let Them Eat fucking Cake, hey.

This!

R0wantrees · 14/04/2019 11:47

Exactly. Can you imagine (pick any group of patients..) eg cancer patients or stroke patients or ANY other patient body EVER looking at serious academic research concerns about outcomes for their fellow patients and trying to silence the experts who want to investigate it?

I think its important to simplify what has happened.

A prescribing NHS service which treats children has been criticised by senior professionals who have identified & whistleblown Safeguarding & duty of care issues.

The consequences of these failures, if found, mean life-long impacts on the sexual, cognitive, mental health, physical health & reproduction capacity of vulnerable children

Carl Heneghan (Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford) & Tom Jefferson (Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University) carried out a review of international studies & published a paper in the BMJ which concluded:

"The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children."

A national newspaper published an article by Professor Heneghan about the risks to children of the current treatment protocol at Tavistock GIDS.

Some students, activists, charities & media celebrities protest a newspaper & a university for whistleblowing the safeguarding concerns from senior medical professionals.

Some attempt to limit press freedom to publish whistleblowing concerned with children's welfare.

Some adults (without children or relevent expertise in medicine/safeguarding) attempt to smear/silence senior academics & experienced professionals who have considerable expertise in medicine & safeguarding.

JackyHolyoake · 14/04/2019 12:14

Transgenderism as promoted by the GBT Lobby is nothing to do with "equality, diversity and inclusion". It is nothing to do with "anti-bullying". It is nothing to do with "civil rights".

Transgenderism as promoted to children is solely about adult autogynephilic heterosexual males aiming to build a "human shield" of children behind which they can deceive and disguise their sexual behaviour.

The argument is: "If it is innate in children, it is innate in us and therefore it cannot be sexual behaviour."

Have a read of this though: 4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

And, in that pic. read the words of an autogynephilic male when talking to women via social media.

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
ChattyLion · 15/04/2019 10:36

Jacky thank you for the 4th wave Now article. Very interesting to read a clinically led perspective. Also noting their important point about the irrelevance and inappropriateness of one kind of patient group- eg autogynephiles, trying to shape care or services or patient advocacy for another kind, like girls with ROGD. Even if you take the (massive and damaging) power dynamics of this particular example out of the equation, you still have a rational principle that one patient group is not the expert on another.

We always knew that that the trans umbrella is a political device that has advantages only for some of the groups (older men) within the umbrella grouping, but this article really helps to articulate in my mind how this is all built on the backs of vulnerable and misled children who will have to live their whole lives with the consequences. Sad

ChattyLion · 15/04/2019 10:39

Also this quote from the 4thWaveNow article is highly relevant to the Times’ coverage:

If knowledge is power, then lack of knowledge is malpractice. The ignorance of some leading gender clinicians regarding all scientific aspects of gender dysphoria is scandalous.

Needmoresleep · 15/04/2019 11:22

Jacky, this YouTube video is curious:

a discussion, effectively, about self-ID and the gap between those prepared to make every effort to be accepted as women and those who make next to no effort at all. With plenty of sympathy for women who cant accept TWAW when faced by someone who appears to be a large six foot man wearing a dress. Rose of Dawn essentially claims that the dating pool is larger for transsexuals who retain penises but who look like women Confused than those who have gone the whole distance.

I don't understand gender dysphoria, but like Rose's honesty and her apparent understanding that societal acceptance needs to happen via negotiation.

What seems clear is that intersex people, again a birght intelligent young Intersex person reviwing the current landscape from their perspective and transsexuals are being thrown under a bus along with women and confused/abused/autistic teenagers to help others achieve whatever they want to achieve. Breaking established and protective boundaries seems more important than providing support for the groups they claim to be operating in the name of.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2019 13:46

What seems clear is that intersex people, again a birght intelligent young Intersex person reviwing the current landscape from their perspective

The interviw by Benjamin Boyce is with Claire Graham who as well as being an intesex & women's rights advocate is also a SEN professional.

Here at 'Correcting A Blindspot' Leeds event organised by Lisa Muggeridge analysing the legal & policy implications of schools 'transgender toolkits:

Tweets at twitter.com/MRKHvoice?lang=en-gb & an important voice to follow.

ChattyLion · 22/04/2019 17:08

This doctors’ journal publication is very relevant about the risks of blockers:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3566363-Letter-from-endocrinologists-inc-Laidlaw-re-dangers-of-puberty-blockers

FannyCann · 22/04/2019 17:28

Michael Laidlaw is a hero. That letter pulls no punches, spells out the facts.

In a funny way so does this, albeit from the opposite end of the argument. She shamelessly spells out the harms done to these children whilst spinning it all as a great advance that allows them to live their "authentic selves". Albeit with no sexual or reproductive function. Another trans Sherpa I think.

ChattyLion · 29/04/2019 20:03

Just want to link to a couple of other relevant threads here:

A Swedish documentary about permanent medical and surgical transition of young teens over there and how their law may be changed to allow this even younger.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3571009-Trans-Train

Also a couple of threads about writing to call for Parliamentary enquiry on this is anyone who is concerned on this issue wants to join in on doing that:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3570011-request-for-hsc-enquiry-into-tavistock-response-from-chair

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3570445-The-2019-MP-Campaign

Also this thread with link to a video from a US doctor which is about medical and surgical transition of children www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3565554-Is-the-Surgical-World-Ready-for-Adolescent-Gender-Surgery

NeurotrashWarrior · 30/04/2019 13:25

Linking this very significant thread here:

Swedish national council of medical ethics recommends Swedish government investigates treatment o... www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3573435-Swedish-national-council-of-medical-ethics-recommends-Swedish-government-investigates-treatment-of-GD-youth-Hormone-treatment-suspended

JQBased · 30/04/2019 14:29

This country has lost its mind, what has society turned in to and how have we allowed it to become a cesspit of warped ideas and degeneracy? This is a classic case of a society that has lost all sense of it self, it's identity and direction. There would never have been such an announcement at any point in our history, why have we allowed it to get this bad that a tabloid must announce an end to what amounts to child abuse, in my opinion?

Binglebong · 30/04/2019 17:18

This jumped out at me as I caught up

Most patient groups dedicate themselves to raising money to funding research and getting academics interested in their cause to look into it by by funding research programmes- look at something like Cancer Research UK, British Heart Foundation, the Association of Medical Research charities etc there are literally thousands of these charities doing this and medical research is one of the top causes for the public to donate to in the UK year in year.

At the moment there is no known cause for ME/CFS. There is speculation and a route many researchers are going down is that is is psychological, or at least there is a psychological element. People, desperate people, believe it is purely physical and are trying to block this research from taking place as they believe it diverts funds from looking for a physical cause and cure.

Why is that relevant?

Because for the most part they are ignored. Any research keep the interest going and gets us closer. If lots of research happens they can say no, this isn't the problem. And then look at what is. But equally the research may highlight something that will help. These are not going to be the same scientists who would be looking for a physical cause so their skills are not diverted.

There is a lot of speculation as to why a psychological cause gets so favoured for research and the general consensus is money. Talking therapy cost a lot less to administer. But that leads to the question of why in trans issues the most expensive options (hormones for life, surgery, life long complications etc) are immediately favoured .

So the point is that a lot of charities try to guide research, but usually because they suspect the cheapest option is being used. Which I think over simplifies things here massively.

In sorry, that ended up wandering. Blame CFS Fog!

Jasging · 30/04/2019 23:32

I was just reading an article about PIE (paedophile information exchange) in the 70's. How that was tolerated to an extent then is similar to what is happening here today. One day everyone else will wake up and be horrified...

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