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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children

721 replies

EweSurname · 07/04/2019 22:56

Looks like it's dropped!

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
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Dothehappydance · 11/04/2019 23:52

What other group asks for their issues to be embedded across the whole of the curriculum? Surely even at the point someone should have gone 'Whoa hold your horses'

Janie143 · 12/04/2019 09:26

I also think a lot of the LGBT orgs feel gay and lesbians are well integrated into society now (which isn't true, especially in minority/religious communities) so they need to focus on trans issues now to continue to have a purpose full purse

Fixed it

scorpio32 · 12/04/2019 10:20

Maybe we need to break up the acronym, having LGBI and (possibly)GC on one side and TA+ on the other.

Actually, when you look at it like that, it makes you realise exactly how small this minority group is. How are they so influential?

BettyDuMonde · 12/04/2019 12:00

The ‘I’ would benefit greatly from being separated from the T according to Claire Graham, intersex woman and advocate for people with DSDs, in this very good interview with Benjamin Boyce:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oN55FBTztAE

Some I people are LGB of course, but that’s as well as being I, not because they are I. It makes little sense to group a congenital medical condition with minority sexual orientations.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/04/2019 16:50

Being someone with an intersex condition is a medical condition. It’s not a sexual orientation and as such should not be included. T isn’t an orientation either.

Piggybacking on Genuine LGB issues has been astonishingly successful for them

ChattyLion · 13/04/2019 08:53

Sorry not RTFT but Flowers again to the Times for covering this in the front page and then having this topic as a Times Editorial the next day. The exposure they are giving to these important questions is BRILLIANT.

As posted above several pages ago on this thread, this Editorial includes (..with thanks to the poster who pasted this on to this thread..):

The bigger questions, however, are for the NHS. It cannot be right that policies relating to physical interventions in children with such far-reaching consequences should be left to GIDS. In other contentious areas of care, the NHS takes a hands-on approach to setting protocols, gathering evidence and monitoring compliance. A similar approach is needed towards gender dysphoria, if only to guard against the risk that well-intentioned efforts to ease suffering today give rise to greater suffering in future.

The Times is absolutely right to argue that to improve quality of care (in England) for children with dysphoria there should be new NHS guidelines.

BUT: NHS GUIDELINES DON’T GO NEARLY FAR ENOUGH TO PROTECT CHILDREN. PARLIAMENTARY ACTION, TO CREATE NEW REGULATION, IS NEEDED.

I think we should be advocating for new legal uk-wide regulation, and case by case review and licensing before anyone under 25 is medically hormonally or surgically transitioned. It’s too important to be left to the say-so of individual clinicians who are placed under immense pressure by the trans lobby and frightened parents who’ve been told their child is at risk of suicide. It’s too important to leave the private doctors to just get on with it, whatever the NHS decides to do.

NHS England guidelines can’t achieve the oversight of clinical practice that this whole area needs. The questions being uncovered here are far bigger than what the NHS (only in England) does. This is a UK- wide issue.

Changing NHS guidelines also won’t stop the private doctors and surgeons from cashing in if the NHS tightens up its guidance. Desperate parents who can afford it will just take their kids privately to be medically transitioned with even less scrutiny. We already know that the UK’s private doctors are doing nicely right now- even now, while the NHS is apparently medically transing kids relatively freely but with waiting lists.

Of course The Times is right to encourage the NHS in England to create standard protocols for clinicians in this field. Because currently these health interventions are either poorly-evidenced or unevidenced. That is unacceptable when the publicly-funded NHS providing permanent medical, hormonal and surgical interventions to children and young people resulting in complex permanent harms and without clear evidence of benefit.

But NHS England diagnosis or treatment guidelines do NOT go nearly far enough to provide the oversight that the public interest here demands.

Any NHS guidance will find it close to impossible to get off the ground anyway because the TRAs will legally challenge it until it suits their needs ie total affirmation only.

If new NHS guidance recommends eg improving the availability of talking therapies (which is what children need, to help them unpack all this) then that will be challenged legally, so will any new expectations for these clinicians to promote research. Because it must all be about rushing to affirmation. Sad

Don’t forget in Manchester there is that pilot about providing medical transing services in the community as part of primary care. That is a shocking idea and is all about de-skilling and normalising an area of medical practice that is deeply concerning. It is very hard to see how it is in the long term best interests of patients to treat them with such low safeguards. Surely any patient choosing permanent complex and drastic side effects on the basis of a feeling of dysmorphia or anxiety should only be offered the best of professional expertise and extensive specialist clinical experience. Not rushed through to medicate (and on the path to surgery) by well-meaning generalists.

Children and young people deserve better and Parliament must urgently look into this area to safeguard their interests and in the wider public interest.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 13/04/2019 09:01

Great post chatty

What is noticeable is that no politicians have made any comments at all. Major articles in the press calling out serious safeguarding / consent / medical malpractice concerns and none of them make any comment.
Why is that? Fear? Corruption? They don't care? Reasons even more sinister relating to abusers in public life ?

LangCleg · 13/04/2019 09:05

Children and young people deserve better and Parliament must urgently look into this area to safeguard their interests and in the wider public interest.

Yes. And I would also add vulnerable adults into this - who are also covered by statutory safeguarding requirements.

Janie143 · 13/04/2019 09:28

And SG and others should not be advisors

ChattyLion · 13/04/2019 10:51

Agree Lang
Primary care is wholly inappropriate for dealing with the likely complex needs of this patient group which is very likely to include highly vulnerable adults.

Truth it’s appalling isn’t it. This is such a huge public interest area. Fair enough we are in the grip of a national political Brexit crisis but loads of us have been regularly writing to our MPs about this for years now. How the fuck are politicians still ignoring this?

Honestly when you think about it, Parliament have acted to bring in more legal red tape and safeguards and ethical oversight- and rightly so- in the public interest, around what can we do with:

-Our personal medical or other data,
-NHS patients who take part in research
-anyone who takes part in clinical trials,
-what we can do with living animals whether in research
-or if they are being killed for meat,
-what we can do with dead human bodies,
-or with bits of human tissue that has been taken out of human bodies,
-or what we can do with human embryos in IVF treatment or in embryo research.

Or for another example: abortion is safe when profesionally and legally provided. I don’t think two doctors’ signatures are needed for competent adult women to end a pregnancy in most circumstances.

But how can Parliament justify requiring on the one hand that whole process with adult women- when we allow no such democratic oversight whatever of what we can do with living children’s bodies with permanent health effects at an age when the patient themselves can’t possibly understand what they are giving up, nor the risks of what they are taking on, and there isn’t any proper evidence of clinical benefit to them. it is shocking.

This is why we have to keep on talking and keeping journalists covering it. It is a scandal and it will keep growing.

We need Parliament to have a Commons Health Select Committee Inquiry to look at this properly. After examining this properly surely to keep children and young people safe they will HAVE to recommend a statutory regulated system, with licensing, case by case application and frequent regulatory inspection of clinical work in this area.

Clearly this would need to be based on evidence but you can imagine just from things anecdotally posted on here, that at a minimum to safeguard patients:

-Parliament should make it illegal for anyone but a licensed doctor (whether NHS or private) to give a specific child or person under 25 years old blockers or hormones or surgery except under licensed conditions after a case by case review process.

-Same for surgical egg retrieval and surgical sperm storage and storing of prepubescent children’s and young people’s ovarian or testicular tissue (in hopes that one day mature viable eggs or sperm might be able to be derived from these.)

The law should also require that:

-There should be a duty for the clinicians who do this work to collect and share their outcomes data for all these patients from medical records so it can be properly researched.

Binders should be classed as a prescription-only medical product and again only possible to provide legally under clinical supervision.

Talking therapy must be made more available and there should be statutory maximum of the waiting times any young person should be expected to wait until they can speak to a proper professional about these issues. (And for other issues while we are at it)

There should be proper government data collection in this space so we know the full picture of what is being provided in both public and private sector.

Criminal sanctions for those who break these laws.

Then a separate campaign to get research funders to fund appropriate professional researchers to properly investigate patient outcomes and to run studies to follow up patients in anonymised ways via medical records.

And also to fund sociological research (like I think James Caspian wanted to do) interviewing de-transitioned people, medically, hormonally and surgically transitioned people, those currently transitioning via services, and young people and children who are having talking therapies only. There’s probably other relevant groups I haven’t thought of.

Research should also be funded to talk to family members so they can talk about their experiences of caring for children and young people in this space.

Also research needs to be funded for the clinical service providers to talk about their professional experience of doing this work.

I’m sure others can think of relevant helpful things to include. My thoughts might not be right either I am no expert in any of this but this seemed like a good place to start from the things people are worried about on here and might go some way to curbing the TRA lobby trying to inappropriately influence medical services.

Groups with power in this area should all be taking a stand and calling for an inquiry into this NOW. So that would include.

All of the medical and psychological professional societies and royal colleges, the BMA (the doctors’ trade union) and the regulators of medical or psychological practice like the General Medical Council,

Plus any organisation who supports research and evidence based medicine, especially in the NHS- like NICE, the NHS in each UK nation, but also the government departments in health, the medical and scientific research funders,
Plus any childrens’ and young people’s paediatric medical groups and bodies.

Sorry to write such long posts on here- I wonder if we need a separate ‘what do we think should happen next when the scandal inevitably builds’ thread?

R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 14:33
Hmm
Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
LangCleg · 13/04/2019 15:13

Primary care is wholly inappropriate for dealing with the likely complex needs of this patient group which is very likely to include highly vulnerable adults.

Exactly this.

That anyone in authority is responding to the demands of highly politicised lobby groups speaking irresponsibly on behalf of a patient group which includes vulnerable adults is, well, shocking seems too reserved a word.

birdsdestiny · 13/04/2019 15:14

Is he saying the medical professionals at the tavistock are lying. That's quite an accusation to make.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 13/04/2019 15:36

I also think there are issues with Primary Care led commissioning of specialist services. (Disclosure - I also believe this about other specialisms).

The experts are employed by the provider, not the commissioner. This inherently makes it more difficult to challenge clinical decisions.

I can't remember which thread it was, but someone commented earlier in the week that at least we have the NHS and not a service led by the providers. Except that this is an example of the commissioner/provider split resembling private healthcare.

The service, is telling the people whose referrals make up their income, who needs to be referred to them.

ChattyLion · 13/04/2019 19:54

Ali1ce yes it feels like the the last area that well meaning amateurs or people on a political mission (or any other kind of non-specialist) should be allowed to design pathways or services for.

OldCrone · 13/04/2019 20:07

The trans lobby have just held a conference. #EPATH2019

According to them, not enough children are being medicated.

mobile.twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1116689347342942208

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3558723--Symptoms-of-gender-dysphoria-a-mermaids-tweet

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
Lamaha · 13/04/2019 20:14

According to them, not enough children are being medicated.

I'll just leave this powerful youtube video here. Panel discussion on medication of children. I don't care if it's on a right wing site.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/04/2019 20:40

Love that cancer, infertility and regret (of irreversible extreme surgery) are being held equal with anxiety and school failure Hmm. Also, they seem to have missed a few side effects off the "medicate" side...

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 13/04/2019 20:42

On the one hand you might get cancer, never have children, and spend you life in agony from your useless neovagina... but on the other hand if you don't do it you might get a C in maths!

R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 21:30

That anyone in authority is responding to the demands of highly politicised lobby groups speaking irresponsibly on behalf of a patient group which includes vulnerable adults is, well, shocking seems too reserved a word.

See current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3558723--Symptoms-of-gender-dysphoria-a-mermaids-tweet

R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 21:31

Also current thread about GreaterManchester pilot project:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3556114-Greater-Manchester-Trans-Health-Service

GeordieGenes · 13/04/2019 21:54

Are the Times runners no any stories on this tomorrow?

GeordieGenes · 13/04/2019 21:55

Gah! I'll try again....

Are the Times running any stories on this issue tomorrow?

Lamaha · 14/04/2019 06:46

I found this: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news-review/children-get-caught-in-the-lgbt-crossfire-3fvvrlw8s about LGBT lessons in schools

Unfortunately, again there is a conflation of LGB and T issues and nobody is happy

ChattyLion · 14/04/2019 09:03

I saw this- article by ignorant students trashing the reputation of an academic central to this discussion in the Times with a useful summary of the academic’s concerns.
www.oxfordstudent.com/2019/04/08/oxford-professor-describes-the-use-of-hormone-blockers-on-transgender-children-as-an-unregulated-live-experiment/

Of course they are trying to silence him by formally complaining about him.

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