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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children

721 replies

EweSurname · 07/04/2019 22:56

Looks like it's dropped!

Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children
OP posts:
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OldCrone · 10/04/2019 10:38

Fox tries to imply that science is on the side of the genderists.

“Look at any modern research in anthropology, sociology, biology, psychology or psychiatry – all indicates that trans children benefit massively from being allowed to express themselves.”

Shouldn't this say that all children benefit massively from being allowed to express themselves? And why do they think that 'trans' children need to be drugged in order to express themselves?

PackingSoap · 10/04/2019 10:48

How does he account for the 76 kids at one Brighton school coming out at once?

It's pretty clear in situations like this that what we are seeing is some sort of contagious sociogenic problem: i.e. a collective delusion (aka. an instance of mass hysteria).

And when you look at youth media, it's fairly obvious that this delusion is being supported from a number of outlets. The number of teen trans-characters that are turning up in youth TV shows is quite astonishing, and their arcs can be unbelievably naive. One recent one I saw seemed to be a question of a girl wanting to become a boy because she wants to play basketball and wear hoodies.

Again, ideas are being disseminated in teen shows that are pretty problematic. There was a mainstream US network teen show a few years ago that depicted a transboy and a young gay male in a successful "gay" relationship; you really have to question what messages this is sending out about homosexuality. The notion that to be "gay" means you are attracted to the same gender, not the same sex, has enormous implications for real "same sex" gay rights and recognition.

But Tatchell appears to choose not to see this. One has to wonder why.

R0wantrees · 10/04/2019 10:49

Fox tries to imply that science is on the side of the genderists.

“Look at any modern research in anthropology, sociology, biology, psychology or psychiatry – all indicates that trans children benefit massively from being allowed to express themselves.”

As opposed the head of Oxford's evidence based medicine !
Hmm

R0wantrees · 10/04/2019 10:54

But Tatchell appears to choose not to see this. One has to wonder why.

Seems likely that he does not engage with/care for the experiences of girls,women, lesbians

Also perhaps focusses on the external sites of homophobia rather than recognising the possible impacts of internalised homophobia?

Peter Tatchell seems to often see issues through the specific lens of his own experience

birdsdestiny · 10/04/2019 11:00

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but have people seen Stonewalls twitter feed about this article. Tweet after tweet after tweet condemning stonewall for ignoring this issue. I don't see how stonewall can continue if all its supporters are raising serious concerns about its direction.

R0wantrees · 10/04/2019 11:12

I don't see how stonewall can continue if all its supporters are raising serious concerns about its direction.

In October 2018 Ruth Hunt was interviewed on R4 about the request to listen to concerns expressed in the nuanced respectful petition (the comments especially are worth reading). She repeated the statement made to the petition, which was an absolute 'no'

threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384455-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-do-not-and-will-not-acknowledge-that-there-is-a-conflict-between-trans-rights-and-sex-based-women-s-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384782-PM-radio-four-Stonewall-petition

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384779-stonewall-and-trans-activism-to-be-debated-on-radio-4-pm

NotBadConsidering · 10/04/2019 11:15

Tatchell completely misses the point. It’s not that the gay teenager is choosing “the extreme solution of gender reassignment” because they can’t deal with homophobia, it’s the fact that they are confused, conflicted, have homophobia in their lives and then consider trans as an option for them. The gender reassignment (in the form of hormones) is then OFFERED to them in this state of confusion because they say their trans and distressed and, with it being incorrectly presented as a good option that is temporary, reversible course and is evidence-based, they embark on this irreversible treatment path that never addresses their sexuality issues nor confronts those homophobic influences in their lives. They are then infertile, cannot orgasm, and suffer a lifetime of medicalisation.

Tatchell, read your own words. Gender reassignment is an extreme solution. It’s a solution that is not evidence-based, and to have a solution you need to make sure the right question is being asked first. And it blatantly isn’t.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 11:15

Poor Fox, likeable in many ways (unlike Owl) but not terribly bright, it seems.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2019 11:17

What I find incredible from Tatchell is the denial of homophobia.

The suggestion that a gay teenager would choose the extreme solution of gender reassignment because they could not cope with homophobia sounds far-fetched. Why would a young person seek to evade anti-gay prejudice by embracing a trans identity that attracts even greater prejudice?

and

The latter therapy is based on the moral presumption that being gay is wrong. Gender reassignment does not make this presumption about homosexuality.

Let me think about this. Perhaps because the very charity which is supposed to stand up for lesbians is institutionally homophobic, and has a 'definition' of homophobia which is homophobic? Of course gender reassignment makes a moral assumption that homosexuality is wrong if its erased the 'sex' part of homosexuality and replaces it with homogenderism. Which is what Stonewall are doing. And Homogenderism is a Men Sexual Rights Movement.

Because Gay Men can not understand that they have privilege over Lesbians? And prejudice against gay men and lesbians is not the same and never has been?

Because our society only values women based upon their looks in a way which men are not? Because we already know that social media is distorting self image in teenagers to a degree never before seen? This applies to all teenagers regardless of how they identify. There has been a huge rise in anorexia in recent years, which has been attributed to exposure to unrealistic celebrity bodies. A view which isn't generally considered controversial nor incorrect. Indeed quite the opposite. 'Born in the wrong body' is merely the ultimate conclusion of this tread and of the consumerism of the body that plastic surgery represents. Women have always been more under pressure to conform or undergo surgery than men.

Because the left wing media and BBC are pushing so many positive stories about trans people and young people are much less likely to come into contact with the ring wing media. Its not their social bubble. Thus they are never exposed to much of a negative image of trans people. Why if we do accept that exposure to celebrity bodies of heterosexual straight people is affecting body image don't we accept the same to be true of anyone who might happen to be trans? Why does the same effect suddenly become transphobic?

The denial of homophobia amongst the trans community and that of parents of children who are identifying as trans is something else.

He's jawdropping in his arrogance, ignorance and willful blindness. For an activist in this field with such a long history behind him its really and trully stunning that he misses all these factors so much.

Factors that ultimately have one thing in common; how women and girls come second. And expose Tatchell's own prejudices starkly.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 11:24

Because we already know that social media is distorting self image in teenagers to a degree never before seen? This applies to all teenagers regardless of how they identify. There has been a huge rise in anorexia in recent years, which has been attributed to exposure to unrealistic celebrity bodies. A view which isn't generally considered controversial nor incorrect. Indeed quite the opposite. 'Born in the wrong body' is merely the ultimate conclusion of this tread

I remember reading here on FWR about a school in which the anorexia problem had been replaced by FtM transitioning. Can anybody remember the source?

RepealTheGRA · 10/04/2019 11:34

Thanks for that birdsdestiny

That thread is very good, it’s a relief to see that experimenting on and sterilising children is still a line in the sand for all right thinking people.

I have some faith in humanity restored and that common sense will prevail.

RepealTheGRA · 10/04/2019 11:36

hipsterfun I vaguely think the school was called St Paul’s? I remember what you’re talking about.

EweSurname · 10/04/2019 11:40

Sarah Ditum's just tweeted similar red

twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1115926558080950277

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 10/04/2019 11:41

If there is a change from anorexia to FtM that suggests the root causes lie in a feeling in a lack of power and control in their lives. Which a goal orientated transition might temporarily relieve feelings of self harm. After it has though, it would suggest that there might be some sort of 'relapse'.

Can anybody remember the source?

No. I can't, but a quick google pulled this up very quickly and there do seem to be a number of articles which seem to point to a co-morbidity or correlation of some sort. Example:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/eat.22438
ABSTRACT
Patients with gender dysphoria and patients with eating disorders often experience discontent with their bodies. Several reports have recognized the co‐occurrence of these two conditions, typically in adults who identify as transgender females and desire a more feminine physique. This case report, in contrast, describes a 16‐year‐old patient with a female sex assigned at birth who first presented with features consistent with anorexia nervosa and later revealed underlying gender dysphoria with a drive for a less feminine body shape. We discuss both the path to recognizing gender dysphoria in this patient as well as the impact of treatment on his eating disorder and overall well‐being. This case is one of only a few reports describing a female‐to‐male transgender patient with an eating disorder and is the first to explore the effects of hormone and surgical intervention in an adolescent patient.

RepealTheGRA · 10/04/2019 11:43

Here’s the news article on St Paul’s complete with Stonewall quotes.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/london-school-girl-pupils-gender-neutral-identify-male-st-pauls-public-school-a7589701.html

Can’t find the Mumsnet thread. Maybe it was taken down?

OvaHere · 10/04/2019 11:56

I saw this video linked elsewhere. It's a father describing how hormone treatment is being pushed on his son (a cancer patient) despite parental concerns and oncologist concerns that it could be fatal. It's deeply worrying.

The Kelsey Coalition seems to be a US parent support and campaign group similar to 4thwavenow and transgendertrend.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2019 11:57

The friend of my sibling who first came out as trans, was from a very religious family.

The older sister couldn't deal with it. She came out, was thrown out the house and tried to kill herself. She later married a gay man as it was in keeping with her faith which was very important to her.

So, on a personal level, I find it hard to get away from the idea that homophobia might be a factor in some people.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 12:02

Brilliant, thanks!

Well, there it is - very useful when trying to explain the fucking nonsense that is the Stonewall brolly.

Needmoresleep · 10/04/2019 12:02

Or this:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4743256/I-m-kids-Sorry-mean-LGBT-pupils.html

St Pauls Boys and Girls Schools is effectively owned by the Worshipful Company of Mercers, and has many City connections. The Boys school is a Stonewall champion school and probably the girls school as well. It is no surprise that they are woke.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 12:04

That was in response to the anorexia link info.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 12:05

Waaah, can’t keep up, sorry Blush

JackyHolyoake · 10/04/2019 12:19

That Champion scheme is little more than grooming people to accept Stonewall dogma.

I would not be surprised if some schools, businesses and public services / institutions come to disassociate themselves from this scheme in the future.

Being a "Champion" is becoming synonymous with the disregard of child safeguarding across the UK and with the disregard of human rights for females.

hipsterfun · 10/04/2019 12:26

Champion is a status appealing to cookie-seekers who prefer others to do their thinking for them.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 10/04/2019 12:37

Champion is a status appealing to cookie-seekers who prefer others to do their thinking for them.

Absolutely.

Needmoresleep · 10/04/2019 12:45

One thing I was struck by is how dated the Rachel Johnson piece seems. It was only 2017, but at that point the trans thing was completely new to most people.

DD went to private schools in West London (SPGS rejected her - something that even then was not a great disappointment), which is why I remember the article. When she left in summer 2016 transgenderism was more or less unknown. Girls in her sixth form all seemed to be bi- or pan- or demi- or what other variant of sexuality that teenagers were able to dream up, but gender was not a thing. It has since changed so fast. When she left the sixth form were about to get their first trans pupil and this pattern seems to have been replicated across the various affluent, academic West London independents.

It came from nowhere yet I already know two parents with (younger) trans kids and hear there are a lot more.

Bloody Stonewall. I really hope they do not survive this.

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