Times article - calls to end transgender 'experiment' on children

[EweSurname]

Looks like it's dropped!

emma zane
@ZaneEmma
Follow the money--not JUST the NIH multi-million-dollar grant. BOTH Olson Kennedys are on payroll at a pharma co that makes testosterone. I wonder why no control arm in the study, only drugs ? A Coincidence? @CoalitionKelsey transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=ev-summit-2015-ce

twitter.com/ZaneEmma/status/1115744747589525506

I've just read these tweets on Fiona Orlander's Twitter and hope it's OK to share them.

They are DMs from a MtF Transperson and are utterly heartbreaking.

This is what happens when we experiment on children.

It's also what happens when we "treat" children as a "solution" to adult issues.

Loads of women settle down in lesbian relationships later in life, having already had kids in heterosexual marriages.
I suppose Webberly explains this away as ‘repression’ or somesuch, rather than accept that sexuality can be fluid.

Ironic, considering we’re all supposed accept that ‘gender fluidity’ gives Phillip Bunce the unquestionable right to use the women’s toilets 🤷‍♀️

Poor Helen! Hardly anyone came to listen to her or the fanatical Olsen Kennedy. It's like wondering why Theresa isn't consulting the National Front about Brexit.

Hi Ali1cedo

Re the tweets that Fionne shared - whilst the individuals concerned gave Fionne permission to post on twitter, they might not be comfortable about them being used outside of this context on a different forum?

Or maybe that's fine - just read further down the thread and Fionne was ok with someone sharing the stories in a different twitter thread.

Either way, the experiences are awful

m.youtube.com/watch?v=U-d_6ZHWWWo

This is fantastic - detransitioned woman GNC Centric Reading the Times article and talking about her own experience. It’s very insightful.

They are DMs from a MtF Transperson and are utterly heartbreaking.

That's awful

Just skimming this thread..... So many rich contributions, with important critical voices...
WTAF.
Where are the supposed grown-ups?!?!?!
This is breaking me.

Being trans is as inherent as homosexuality – you wouldn’t expect someone who was gay to prove themselves.

Incorrect. The incidence of homosexuality seems constant across time and cultures (although the acceptability of expressing it has of course varied a lot.) there are biological signals found which seem to correlate with homosexuality and some potential genetic mechanism by which is increases fitness of relatives. Homosexual behaviour is a part of the human norm.

It requires no alteration of the body, no drugs, no surgery.

Gay rights do not detract from the rights of straight people.

Bring trans has none of the above characteristics. If you’re arguing it’s as normal as being gay, you need to provide historical evidence (of course this why people are being incorrectly and retrospectively trsnsed.) you need cultural evidence (don’t start with hijra or two spirit, both of which are not being trans.) and you need biological evidence - mechanisms by which being trans benefits reproductive fitness, possible genetic factors etc.

As of the current time, absolutely none of above exist.

So no, it’s not like being gay.

A friend was talking about this, and how some middle-aged women she knew were discovering lesbianism, then I spotted this:

I actually know a couple of women who 'came out' as lesbian after years of marriage, or dating men or whatever. From their experience, it seems to be mainly down to trauma. Like, they have always been bi, as I don't really think your sexuality ever 'changes' as such..but they kind of ignored their attraction to females until a guy really really hurt them, then they allowed it in and chose purposely to exclude men from their dating pool due to bad experience.

Honestly, I am bi myself, though openly (had a female partner for many many years from being about 14 to maybe 18) and I totally toally get the 'just exclude men, you won't have as much chance of being hurt that way' line of thinking and if something went wrong in my marriage, I could be tempted to do that. It makes perfect sense to me.

I just wanted to take an opportunity to heap praise and adulations on all those decent, caring, professionals who have either resigned or become whistleblowers over this case.

What you did was absolutely correct and right and you are in my heart and mind.

Brave warriors all of you

Mind, this whole sexuality is fluid thing, I have never really heard that before but reading up a little after making my post, and I guess that makes sense too. I kind of always assumed that such women were always bi but just either didn't realise it or purposely ignored it. Its hard to see it from the POV of someone who..isn't bi, being bi myself tbh.

being trans is as inherent as homosexuality

And yet the idea of transgenderism seems to exist only in this particular culture, time and place.

As little as 120 years ago, pink was the 'boy' colour. Manual labour is seen as women's work in many parts of the world today. Art galleries everywhere are full of paintings of boys in dresses.

you wouldn’t expect someone who was gay to prove themselves.

Because there is no need to do so. Being gay harms nobody, affects nobody else's privacy, dignity, rights and does not involve mutilation and life long medicalisation.

I know of women who have absolutely no idea they are lesbians until the get to the menopause and suddenly fall head over heels in love with a woman and have to go through a painful divorce from their good-natured husbands. So I don't think it is necessarily trauma.

I've wondered whether it is a natural adaptation because women outlive men?

So I don't think it is necessarily trauma.

Oh of course not, there will be many reasons for it. Just the women I know who have gone down that route, thats been the reason.

There is a call in light of the revelations discussed in Times to suspend Tavistock services. I haven't looked into it,:

(extract)
For the attention of the Rt Hon Matt Hancock MP, Secretary of State for Health

Dear Mr Hancock,

I write to you with great urgency to request the immediate suspension of all services at the Tavistock Centre in light of the testimony of five former clinicians who have drawn attention to the abuses at the clinic.

They have said that NHS gender clinic is risking a “live experiment” on the children under their care and that many children go on to take irreversible cross-sex hormones. The explosion in the number of referrals to the Centre was a real cause for concern and prompted these clinicians to draw attention to what’s really going on there." (continues)
www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/169902-suspend-transgender-services-tavistock-now?tc=tw&tcid=55126464

I've signed that petition, Rowan.

In my personal opinion, the Tavistick should not be suspended. Like it or not children are being referred there and I think it is imperative that the best outcomes are sought for those children.

I would worry that were the Tavistock's services to be suspended, children could be pushed towards a wilderness of unscrupulous services, in this country and abroad.

Off the top of my head, I would instead be calling for.

An immediate CQC inspection focusing upon safeguarding.

Suspension of Mermaids as a preferred stakeholder.

The assessment process for treatment all children be reviewed, with a view to increasing safeguards. I would wish to consider independent assessment by at least 2 separate clinicians and a process with built-in cooling off periods.

Much tighter clinical auditing focusing upon clinical outcomes and long term review.

Review of the CQUIN terms, ensuring that the percentage of those who go onto treatment is removed as a quality metric.

To the medical professionals who have stayed on to ensure that children with complex needs are given the right care (rather than the drugs and pathways that they think will solve their problems), I say thank you.

I support you. I stand with you. I admire what you are doing. I am shocked that no politician, NHS executive or children's advocate can get off their arses and look at the ethical dilemmas that you face every day.

Yeah - that petition is not going to go anywhere - but I just want some pause for thought.

I want someone to actually do something. People to actually sit up and be shocked at what's happening - rather than just calling us all hateful bigots.

Far from being shamed, Mermaids are advertising for more staff, hot on the heels of a massive lottery grant.

I despair, I really do.

Off the top of my head, I would instead be calling for.

An immediate CQC inspection focusing upon safeguarding.

Suspension of Mermaids as a preferred stakeholder.

The assessment process for treatment all children be reviewed, with a view to increasing safeguards. I would wish to consider independent assessment by at least 2 separate clinicians and a process with built-in cooling off periods.

What is also needed is for professionals with a range of relevent expertise from other children's services to join the Tavistock service.

Children referred there should have the opportunity to be assessed outside of the dominant ideology of 'innate gender identities'

Totally agree Rowan

There also seems to be significant & serious training needs for some GIDS clinicians, trans charity members, TRA policy influencers etc re childrens' mental health, abuse & trauma, family dynamics, child psychology, Safeguarding etc

I suspect that specialists from teams working with children & young people with eating disorders might provide relevent insight.

I might also add a training update on consent. I know we have discussed on other threads, but I remain very concerned that consent isn't always obtained correctly from anxious/homophonic parents, or confused and unrealistic teens.