Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Police interviewing Caroline Farrow under caution and threatening to arrest her for "misgendering"

999 replies

Pimmsnlemonade · 19/03/2019 00:11

twitter.com/CF_Farrow/status/1107787009614065664

And, as she says in the thread:

"Meanwhile a group of people have terrified and harassed my family. Doxed my children, made violent and sexual threats, signed me up to porn accounts, did the same to my husband, threatened to visit here. And tumbleweed..."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
nauticant · 21/03/2019 09:57

Wait. The Communications Act can be interpreted to just mean causing "annoyance, inconvenience, or needless anxiety" over electronic platforms?!
That would mean pretty much all of Twitter could be arrested!!!

It's funny when you put it like that but, effectively, yes.

The point about these laws is that they cover many commonplace activities that most people might find irritating or in bad taste but nothing more. One (deliberate?) side effect of these laws is to put many of us into a perpetual condition of "potential criminality" meaning that if the state wants to go after inconvenient people, there's a reasonable chance something "criminal" can be found if the state looks hard enough.

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 10:00

I agree, nauticant.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 21/03/2019 10:03

Nobody hates Jackie Green, nobody. I hate her mother for what she did to her child and I hate her mother for promotoing what she did to her child and I hate the ideology and I hate a lot of TRAs who may or may not be trans themselves.

But I don't hate Jackie Green.

I wonder if AH and SH are aware that this act can just as easily be used against them?

nauticant · 21/03/2019 10:09

AH and SH will believe, with some justification, that this act won't be used against them. But that's in the current climate. Have a shift in outlook, politics, whatever, and they would be even more exposed than Caroline Farrow. (I'm not so keen on using CF as a label for her.)

That's the point. One's safety under the law doesn't depend on what the law says, it depends on what the political will is of the state. This is where Magna Carta came from.

heresyisthenewblack · 21/03/2019 10:14

Fuck.

That's terrifying, nauticant

Every. Time. The. Situation. Is. Actually. Worse. Than. I. Thought.

ThePurportedDoctoress · 21/03/2019 10:15

Surely that is a very public threat? For which there could be consequences?

It's just unrelated banter, isn't it. Like when I say "the violent golf club attack man and his sidekick the unhinged doctor", I'm obviously not talking about them.

RedDogsBeg · 21/03/2019 10:17

In the Times article Mermaids is described as a Lobby Group, which of course it is, what I want to know is why a Lobby Group has been allowed to go into schools and provide training to organisations such as the Police who are supposed to be politically impartial. What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this?

HumberElla · 21/03/2019 10:24

That’s fascinating nauticant- and worrying.

I was looking up ‘policing by consent’ yesterday, as I think it still forms the basis of how we police the country. There are some interesting principles - example:

“To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.”

Doesn’t apply to individuals case by case obvs. But I wonder if 50% of the population were consistently being policed in a way that doesn’t observe the law of the land then presumably it contravenes these principles?

TimeLady · 21/03/2019 10:24

Harrop and Hayden are just being goady fuckers and best ignored.

Datun · 21/03/2019 10:25

Every single time you let transactivists talk, they incriminate themselves.

Hinting at being violent to women?

Class.

nauticant · 21/03/2019 10:27

I'm not saying this applies to all laws in the UK. There are many good ones that are clear(ish) and enable the public to know whether they are acting legally or illegally. I'm talking about some of the newer style public order laws which have been drafted mainly with the useability of the state in mind.

Needmoresleep · 21/03/2019 10:28

That would mean pretty much all of Twitter could be arrested!!!

Which is what James Kirkup is saying:

^Since the investigation is ongoing and some of the details remain unclear, I will say no about this for now, other than to repeat the core fact of the case:

A British police force is investigating a journalist because of words that she published.^

James Kirkup's main interest is the democratic process. He is both a researcher and a journalist. He is widely read by those associated with the law making process and very well regarded.

Susie Green picked the wrong person to pursue. The main push back will come from journalists who wont want existing law to gag journalists. And from people of faith, who want to speak about their core values within a liberal society.

So not about trans, other than along the way quite a lot of people will be shocked by what happened to the young Jackie Green, and react quite differently to the way they reacted to the glossy drama.

I think Susie's advisers, and I wonder if Teli is active here, now realise this so have decided to withdraw.

On the timings mentioned by Sky, I wonder if Mermaids and friends have wanted a test case, and persuaded WYP, who presumably they advise or train, that one was needed. The Helen Islan one failed so this one, which perhaps was waiting for a precedent to be set by the first, was revived.

I wonder what will be attempted next? A private libel prosecution, perhaps, against someone unknown and unconnected? Though how much better for them if they could set a legal precedent that had had transphobia as a crime, and the resulting ability to search through a couple of years of someone's Twitter in the hope of finding something compromising.

Needmoresleep · 21/03/2019 10:29

What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this?

Stonewall

Knicknackpaddyflak · 21/03/2019 10:32

A private libel prosecution

As we saw before, CPS are not in favour of people bringing private prosecutions, and a defendant can ask the matter to go to CPS. Who close it saying no, this shouldn't go to court.

RedDogsBeg · 21/03/2019 10:35

Oh yes forgot about about them Needmoresleep, I'm going to have to do some research because I naively believed political lobby groups were not allowed to do this.

heresyisthenewblack · 21/03/2019 10:37

I wonder what will be attempted next? A private libel prosecution, perhaps, against someone unknown and unconnected? Though how much better for them if they could set a legal precedent that had had transphobia as a crime, and the resulting ability to search through a couple of years of someone's Twitter in the hope of finding something compromising.

This is my worry, especially after what I've literally just been taught about the laws the TRAs are leaning on.

Daughterofmabel · 21/03/2019 10:37

What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this
LGBTY Scotland.

heresyisthenewblack · 21/03/2019 10:43

What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this?

Gendered Intelligence
"offers a number of different trans training packages for staff in schools, colleges, universities and youth services. We also provide creative workshops for children and young people to learn about gender diversity"

GIRES
The organisations for which GIRES has provided training are involved in information technology, television, aviation, nuclear power, defence equipment, publishing, financial services, food processing, education, healthcare provision and regulation, policing, the law, central and local government and sport. Most of these organisations have become Corporate Members of the charity

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 10:45

Stonewall

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 10:46

Teach me to only read a few posts down Grin

Needmoresleep · 21/03/2019 10:49

RedDog,

Stonewall are the main event. Its Stonewall and Friends.

I am hoping that at least one Sunday Newspaper is collecting evidence and waiting for the climate to change sufficiently for them to publish a major expose. Most probably Gilligan in the Sunday Times, but the MoS will be collecting material that will persuade people that they simply cannot afford to vote Labour in its present form. If an awkward precedent were set, the Mail is the most vulnerable.

R0wantrees · 21/03/2019 10:51

In the Times article Mermaids is described as a Lobby Group, which of course it is, what I want to know is why a Lobby Group has been allowed to go into schools and provide training to organisations such as the Police who are supposed to be politically impartial. What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this?

Its important to recognise the relationship between Press For Change and GIRES

Anlaf wrote:

"Now who knew that GIRES was set up as the charitable arm of Press for Change? I did not.

The Gender Identity Research and Education Society

Press for Change activists Bernard Reed and Yvonne Wingfield have been hard at work setting up a charity, which is now going for registration with the Charity Commission.

The idea is to allow the charity to take on - and expand - the current work of Press for Change in the areas of publication of information, education and training, research and support for students. PFC itself cannot be a charity, being of its nature political, but it makes sense to siphon off some of our activities into a charity, especially as the range of our activities continues to expand.

From the 1997 newsletter
web.archive.org/web/20000606005635/www.pfc.org.uk/newsltr/nwslet09.htm#sw-trains

(Said this before but PfC really were impressively well organised - logging friendly MPs, asking supporters to have face to face meetings with their own MPs, and using formal political structures like a charity and parliamentary forum.)"

from an important thread illustrating the evolution of trans rights activism in UK:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?pg=4

R0wantrees · 21/03/2019 10:56

Most probably Gilligan in the Sunday Times, but the MoS will be collecting material that will persuade people that they simply cannot afford to vote Labour in its present form. If an awkward precedent were set, the Mail is the most vulnerable.

Its a cross-party issue. It was always the case that some politicians, papers etc would seek to make political capital & an issue for the Labour Party, Greens (& no doubt at some point Lib Dems) however the Conservative Party and specifically some Conservative MPs such as Maria Miller, Andrew Lansley have played key roles in promoting trans rights lobbyists and failing to properly scrutinise the impact on Women's Rights & Safeguarding.

Needmoresleep · 21/03/2019 10:57

Prick News does not disappoint:

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/20/police-investigating-misgendering-mermaids-ceo-trans-daughter/

I had thought Caroline was quite clear. The police would not show her the tweets that formed the basis of the complaint, so she assumed misgendering. But why let the facts get in the way of an opportunity to blame a woman.

I hope Caroline is OK. The Mermaids PR damage limitation seems to be in full swing.

R0wantrees · 21/03/2019 11:05

What other political lobby groups are allowed to do this?

TELI & Scottish Trans Alliance led by James Morton have had considerable influence.

James Morton in Scotland has played a key role in writing education, prison policies etc

TELI was co-founded by Tara Hewitt, Jess Bradley & Michelle Hudson. Its first conference included many prominant trans rights lobbyists including Susie Green CEO Mermaids:

TELI was formed in 2016, from their 'Vision':

"The Trans Equality Legal Initiative works to build a collective and strategic response to the widespread and entrenched discrimination and inequality experienced by members of the trans community. The founders came together with this aim after the Government released the 'Transgender Equality Inquiry'. This was the first Government Inquiry into the discrimination and abuse suffered by members of the trans community in the UK. The report outlined the systemic discrimination faced by this community in almost every aspect of their private and public lives.

Through TELI, we hope to bring together human rights lawyers, third sector trans activist organisations, academics, equality and diversity experts and members of the trans, non-binary and queer community to pool our knowledge, expertise and skill base to inform both strategic litigation and to assist in lobbying for clear and concrete measures to secure equality and safety for members of the trans community. We also hope to consolidate expertise in this area of law to help inform practitioners and activists."

Expert speakers and facilitors at the inaugural conference:
Ashleigh Talbot (TV Presenter & Journalist)
Bernard Reed OBE (GIRES)
Helen Belcher (Co-founder of Trans Media Watch)
Dr Jay Stewart MBE (CEO - Gendered Intelligence)
Prof. Alex Sharpe (Keele University)
Michelle Brewer (Garden Court Chambers)
Kate Hutchinson (WipeOut Transphobia)
Jane Fae (Independent Journalist)
Jess Bradley (Action for Trans Health)
Susie Green (Managing Director of Mermaids)
Tara Hewitt (Equality, Diversity & Inclusion Lead UHSM NHS Foundation Trust)
Sophie Anhoury (Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist, Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust)
David Bufton (Linklaters LLP)
Stephanie Harrison QC (Garden Court Chambers)
Jane Ryan (Bhatt Murphy Solicitors)
Allan Briddock (One Pump Court)
Becky Kaufmann (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Peter Kelley (GALOP)
Kate Hutchinson (Director at Wipe Out Transphobia)
Dr Jay Stewart MBE (CEO, Gendered Intelligence)
Susie Green (Managing Director of Mermaids)
Terry Reed OBE (GIRES)
Ashley Reed
Louise Hooper (Garden Court Chambers)
Paul Dillane (Executive Director, UK Lesbian and Gay Immigration Group)
Nina Nasim (UK Lesbian and Gay Immigration Group)
Cathy Jaquiss (10 KBW)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520762-Jess-Bradley-government-advisor-and-suspended-NUS-Trans-Officer-Part-iv

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3321764-Jess-Bradley-suspended-Part-II

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323623-Who-is-really-funding-Jess-Bradleys-defence