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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's go back to 2007

166 replies

Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:36

I was having a footle - back in 2007-2008 there were a number of submissions to Parliamentary committee on laws relating to hate crimes, and on extreme pornography.

They are pretty interesting. Shall we have a rummage?

Here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

And here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

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Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:47

First up: Press for Change publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

What's most interesting here is that PfC draw the transgender umbrella very wide:

In the broadest use of the term, a transgender person crosses the conventional boundaries of gender; in clothing; in presenting themselves; even as far as having multiple surgical procedures to be fully bodily reassigned in their preferred gender role.

In this report we will normally use the term 'trans people' to describe those people who might be described as falling broadly within this context, as it has become the term of normal use since the coining of it by Press for Change for their 1996 mission statement: "Seeking respect and equality for ALL trans people"[2]. People who identify as transsexual are a small part of this spectrum and may or may not have had medical treatment to alter their physical appearance

What's also interesting is that PfC's prime example of hatred is an elderly woman who (in the quoted newspaper article) does not want a male-born carer (with or without a GRC):

Example 1: "Exclusive Fright Nurse: Sex-swap carer

A pensioner was horrified when a "strapping" 6ft sex-change carer turned up to bathe her. Frail Kathy Yates, 88 specifically requested a female to assist her at home. Daughter Kathleen, 48 fumed: "When the carer came through the door, I nearly keeled over. "It looked like a man dressed as a woman. Talk about an overdose of make-up! He was 6ft with badly bleached blond hair. "He had shoes that must have been size 11, huge hands - and insisted I call him Sue." The carer said she moved from Cornwall to Blackpool, Lancashire, to start a new life after his op. "I said, 'You won't be showering my mother, sonny boy.'" Blackpool Council said 'Sue' had been a female legally for more than a year. A spokesman added: "It is unlawful for her to be treated in any other way." [11]

Transphobia is very specific and will not be protected by any measure to provide protection on the grounds of sexual orientation alone. In all probability the daughter's transphobia, and what she may or may not have said to her mother, manifested itself as the "incitement to hatred". Transphobia is pervasive within the majority in what became a very public example of incitement to transphobic hatred by its repetition in the press,

By having good law to support them in resisting this kind of incitement, not only employment policies and practices, local authorities are empowered to assist in stamping out this kind of irrational hatred and intolerance. In the event it should be noted, the mother in this article never did make an official complaint.

Also finally of note: Engendered Penalties showed that the suicide attempt rate for trans people is very high, far higher than the rate for one of the most mentally vulnerable groups; people with ongoing mental health problems as a result of childhood abuse or trauma.

According to the evidence in Engendered Penalties, 35% of all trans adults have attempted to commit suicide once as an adult, over 14% have tried it at least twice. We have no idea of how many succeeded.

Respondents who reported attempting suicide, or self harm, because of being a cross dresser, transgender/transsexual or because of other people's reactions to them being trans.

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Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:56

(PfC submission also has some strong stuff on the properly grim physical and verbal abuse faced by transgender people)

Next up, GIRES. A story of a trans child:

From the age of 2, Dennis Atkins began to show a strong preference for toys and books designed for girls. When Dennis started school, he liked it but gravitated towards the girls for making friends. Dennis told a couple of the girls that were closest to him that he wanted to be a girl, which they found odd and therefore called him names. The school staff supported Dennis as best they could. However, they didn't understand what was happening. Dennis's mother bought girl clothes for him to wear at home. He started at a new primary school, with a boy's name and went into school in boy's uniform. But he was becoming more adamant that he needed to be allowed to be a girl all the time. He began to tell the other children that he had a girl brain in a boy body.

Ladybrain, toys, hair, clothes: check.

GIRES were also concerned about suicide risk Frequently, the consequence is that they suffer vicious harassment and even violence. Too often, they attempt suicide. It is regrettable that causing suicide is not treated as equivalent to murder or manslaughter.

All three case studies of Trans people who suffer bullying as a result of their appearing trans, end in the person attempting suicide.

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Anlaf · 30/12/2018 01:03

GIRES link publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmpublic/criminal/memos/ucm37802.htm

Also notable that both GIRES and PfC wanted protection against harassment to apply to those who are not trans. Might this be a good thing if it protected GNC women?
The protection for transgender people should be widely drawn. It should not be restricted to those who intend to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone gender reassignment.

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Purplewithgreenspots · 30/12/2018 10:41

Terrifying how a man’s right to be treated as a woman is more important than a vulnerable elderly woman’s safe and respectful intimate care. How dare the daughter not want a male bodied person not want to see her mum naked Hmm. How far is this going to go? Angry

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2018 10:47

That story about the 88 year old mum and "transphobic" daughter gives me the absolute rage. Angry

LangCleg · 30/12/2018 10:53

As we've been saying on several recent threads (to hot denials) - all this has been going on for a very long time, with transsexual activists at the forefront. The woes we find ourselves in now are not all down to a load of cross dressing hangers-on at all. We are exactly where activists wanted us to be.

Pepvixen · 30/12/2018 10:54

Is Press for Change Stephen Whittle's outfit?

heathspeedwell · 30/12/2018 10:55

So it's 'irrational hatred' for a frail 88 year old woman to not want to be bathed by a 6 foot person whom she sees as a man? And her attitude is 'equivalent to murder' because of course so many trans women attempt suicide.

How do they know if the elderly lady was one of the 33% of women in the UK who have been sexually assaulted or the 20% of women who have been raped. What about their high suicide attempts?

And note how the council said it would be 'illegal' not to treat Sue as a woman, despite the fact that the Equality Act makes very clear exemptions on the grounds of sex.

It's very interesting to see how long this has been happening.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 30/12/2018 10:59
. It details how the ideology was covertly made policy across the board in the USA. 2007 was mentioned as the start of the TG ideology assault with the creation of WPATH followed by wilful ignoring of the clinical research to date.
Ereshkigal · 30/12/2018 11:18

We are exactly where activists wanted us to be.

Except now any cross dressing hangers on can join in too.

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2018 11:19

Yes woman it's a very eye opening video. Especially the bits about how WPATH made themselves a credible body.

WeRiseUp · 30/12/2018 11:38

Press For Change is Stephen Whittle and Christine "buy my book" Burns' outfit.

Stephen Whittle also became president of WPATH in 2007

When Whittle visits Mumsnet, Whittle appears to be driven by hatred and a desire for revenge.

WeRiseUp · 30/12/2018 11:41

Whittle is also professor of Law at Manchester Met.

The penis-flashing non-binary woman is also Manchester-based.

TalkingintheDark · 30/12/2018 12:20

It’s quite devastating reading that account of the elderly woman being presented with a male carer, the way it’s framed. It’s chillingly clear that it’s transactivists like this who don’t regard women/girls as human, not the other way round.

gendercritter · 30/12/2018 12:20

This is pretty shocking. Well done finding it.

Can you actually imagine a woman who has all the strains of looking after a vulnerable mother 'mouthing off' to/challenging a 6 ft man in make up? Most women would find that horribly upsetting and intimidating.

Where are the politicians who are able to assess things critically and who understand science and sexism? I despair.

TalkingintheDark · 30/12/2018 12:22

And yes, shocking and interesting in equal measure to see how long this has been going on, and to what extent. Whittle, Burns et al certainly give the lie to the “true trans” narrative.

TalkingintheDark · 30/12/2018 12:26

Press for Change at it since 19 fucking 96. Holy shit.

I guess that’s how we got to the GRA in 2004.

With the vast, vast majority of us completely and blissfully oblivious.

But the intention to completely erode all women’s boundaries were there from the get go. Women having boundaries is TRANSPHOBIA. Evil, power-crazed shitlords that we are.

LangCleg · 30/12/2018 12:34

But the intention to completely erode all women’s boundaries were there from the get go.

Yep. Remember this when people come on here and tell you that our current problems are all the fault of johnny-come-latelies who have ruined it all for the "true trans". It's not true.

PencilsInSpace · 30/12/2018 12:42

Shocking isn't it when you dig up this stuff and discover this was the plan all along?

I did buy Christine 'buy my book' Burns' previous book (Pressing Matters) when it was given away free a couple of months ago. What I have learnt:

The trans rights movement started with the Beaumont Society - a club for heterosexual cross-dressing men and their wives. TS could join too but they said no to drag queens because homophobia. Stephen Whittle was the first FTM to join Beaumont and was very active in the organisation.

The various demographics have been inseparable throughout PFC history. They championed the use of the word trans as it did not discriminate between TS and TV.

So it was never a case of the trans (as in TS) umbrella widening to include TVs and cross-dressers, rather it was the TV and cross-dressers umbrella widening to include TS.

PFC were consulted on changes to the Sex Discrimination Act in 1999. Women were not. Let that sink in. Women were not consulted on changes to the Sex Discrimination Act

PFC were talking about self-ID in 2000
Also in 2000 PFC were talking about an ultimate goal of just not recording sex

PFC were actively consulted (as in, invited to meetings in government departments and sent confidential drafts of reports for feedback) from the earliest stages of the work that resulted in the GRA.

It was PFC themselves who first spotted the potential problem with inheritance and primogeniture and actively suggested an exception. As far as I can tell this is the only exception they thought reasonable - but I'd have to dig out the original archived correspondence to verify that. It's all carefully preserved apparently because they're very proud of what they've done.

Throughout all this cosy consultation period (Chritine says they knew they were getting somewhere when the best biscuits came out at a private chat at the Home Office HmmBiscuit) PFC simply failed to mention that when they said 'trans' this included every cross-dresser and knicker fetishist in the country.

WeRiseUp · 30/12/2018 12:47

It makes me so cross I wasn't more aware. In the late 1990s it was all Spice Girls, 'Blair's Babes', Lad's Mags, burlesque, Spearmint Rhino, 'empowering' sexual explotation for women and girls. It was all about 'I'm alright Jack' individualism while sex inequality was becoming a sport, but this was not seen as important because of the all women shortlists and a greater presence of women in politics.

Meanwhile Whittle and Burns were cooking something up behind the scenes.

It is so annoying how much fire fighting feminists have to do all the bloody time.

PencilsInSpace · 30/12/2018 13:04

And note how the council said it would be 'illegal' not to treat Sue as a woman, despite the fact that the Equality Act makes very clear exemptions on the grounds of sex.

This was in 2007 and so pre-dates the EA. The relevant legislation would be the Sex Discrimination Act (1999 amendments) which does include some very specific 'genuine occupational qualifications'. They're a bit strange though because in some (but not all) of the exceptions, there is a presumption of a difference between someone in the process of undergoing gender reassignment and someone who has completed gender reassignment.

So there's a specific exception where -

(d)the holder of the job provides vulnerable individuals with personal services promoting their welfare, or similar personal services, and in the reasonable view of the employer those services cannot be effectively provided by a person whilst that person is undergoing gender reassignment.

... but this only applies to people who are intending to undergo, or are in the process of undergoing, gender ressignment. Once that process is complete this exception no longer applies.

However because Mrs Yates was receiving care in her own home, there was another exception that could be used which did not differentiate between those in the process of undergoing and those who had completed gender reassignment -

(b)the job is likely to involve the holder of the job doing his work, or living, in a private home and needs to be held otherwise than by a person who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment, because objection might reasonably be taken to allowing to such a person—

(i)the degree of physical or social contact with a person living in the home, or

(ii)the knowledge of intimate details of such a person’s life,

which is likely, because of the nature or circumstances of the job or of the home, to be allowed to, or available to, the holder of the job;

So Blackpool Council was chatting shit.

WeRiseUp · 30/12/2018 13:12

I also find it interesting that Whittle - FtM transsexual a) joined a society for transvestites which seems an odd fit (what on Earth does a FtM transsexual have in common with men who get turned on by wearing women's clothes? - also Whittle is same sex attracted - if they didn't accept drag queens, why was a FtM homosexual welcome?) and b) how did it happen that Whittle ended up running it?

Is this where Whittle made some early important connections? Transvestism is enjoyed by people of all social categories.

Whittle also has an annoying fake persona of an old duffer of a gentleman. Was Whittle copying and trying to become like the posh old dudes at the Beaumont?

The whole thing is really odd.

TalkingintheDark · 30/12/2018 13:15

Pencils you are phenomenal on all this. Amazing work.

WeRiseUp I don’t see how we could have been more aware when all this was going on so far under the radar. And quite deliberately so, I’m sure.

TalkingintheDark · 30/12/2018 13:18

Throughout all this cosy consultation period (Chritine says they knew they were getting somewhere when the best biscuits came out at a private chat at the Home Office hmmbiscuit) PFC simply failed to mention that when they said 'trans' this included every cross-dresser and knicker fetishist in the country.

The phrase “lying by omission” springs to mind, doesn’t it.

I’m still gobsmacked that trans rights activism in the UK actually started with TVs. Pips Bunce is just the logical conclusion of that, I guess.

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