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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

226 replies

NellieEllie · 15/03/2019 12:17

About to start I think.....

OP posts:
Onlyinanemergency · 16/03/2019 07:50

Bicker that has actually just made me cry into my breakfast cereal, in front of my bewildered children!

littlbrowndog · 16/03/2019 08:00

Bicker 💪☄️

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 16/03/2019 08:24

Fantastic post, Bicker, brava! I hope you’re reading that, Sloth. There is nothing progressive about trans ideology, nothing.

Mock on, teenagers, mock on.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 16/03/2019 08:26

Interesting article on the Morning Star, the last paras discussing the harm of identity politics.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/women-race-class-and-gender-come-under-spotlight

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 08:33

^There is nothing progressive about trans ideology, nothing.*

Benjamin Boyce interviews 'Ben (GNC Centric), a young detransitioned woman . She recently started a youtube channel that pulls no punches about her early experiences in the LGBT and Kink communities, her gender dysmorphia, transition and detransition'

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community | with ⚢ GNC-Centric ⚢'

LangCleg · 16/03/2019 09:32

gassy self-righteousness

Oh, Bicker, I am so stealing that.

Where's Sloth this morning?

CharlieParley · 16/03/2019 09:56

Brilliant Bicker

I too was "live and let live" until three men beat up Maria McLachlan and even more men said she deserved it for holding an opinion that they disapprove of. Then I realised that while tolerance was expected from us, our needs would not be tolerated.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 16/03/2019 10:29

That's for sharing the video R0

I've only watched part of it, but I'm reminded of all the late transitioning males who join youth support groups as mentors and leaders. I hope they are trained properly to ensure that they don't impose their male socialisation on young vulnerable transmen.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 10:41

I've only watched part of it, but I'm reminded of all the late transitioning males who join youth support groups as mentors and leaders. I hope they are trained properly to ensure that they don't impose their male socialisation on young vulnerable transmen.

I hope that any adult working with children and young people is sufficiently aware and trained with regards Safeguarding, has appropriate supervision and boundaries.

Given the widespread lack of Safeguarding understanding amongst prominant trans-activists and organisations, I am very concerned.

Zeugma · 16/03/2019 11:07

A pp upthread mentioned size 10 feet and it jogged my memory about this film review in the Guardian (sorry) yesterday:

www.theguardian.com/film/2019/mar/13/girl-review-lukas-dhont-victor-polster-transgender-ballet

Now, I'm a massive fan of Peter Bradshaw's writing on film, he's always thoughtful and nuanced (and often very funny) but I honestly found it hard to unpick this one. I suspect he was trying hard to navigate a difficult path through it (it's the Grauniad, after all) and it hasn't been a total success. I can't believe he hasn't thought very hard about all this but I can't tell quite what he thinks. I mean, obviously he rates it as a piece of art as it's his film of the week.but the bigger issue....hmm, not sure.

The publicity still shows a communal shower-scene, by the way.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 11:31

I've only watched part of it, but I'm reminded of all the late transitioning males who join youth support groups as mentors and leaders. I hope they are trained properly to ensure that they don't impose their male socialisation on young vulnerable transmen.

I hope that any adult working with children and young people is sufficiently aware and trained with regards Safeguarding, has appropriate supervision and boundaries.

Benjamin Boyce
"In my 4th interview with the desisted cis sisters of the @ PiqueResProject, Jesse (@ dogcalledbambi) recounts her experience in LGBT youth groups, the siren song of identity, and how the activist mentality operates similarly in different domains of justice:

Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)
OldCrone · 16/03/2019 12:00

Unfortunately if you have a blanket ruling to 'live and let live' this includes letting the clinically insane, the abusers, the selfish and greedy, etc live as they wish - and for everyone else, society and life will be unsafe, insecure and chaotic. At some point we have to define boundaries and maintain them.

'Live and let live' is what has got us here. We have to decide where to draw the line between what is progressive and what allows predators to abuse more vulnerable people.

This is what we saw in the 70s. Homosexuality was legalised but the age of consent was higher than for heterosexuals. Gay rights campaigners argued that young gay people were being discriminated against and the age of consent should be the same. At this point PIE stepped in with their arguments that younger children also had a sexuality and should be allowed to explore it. Many on the progressive left were allowing these people a platform to argue for the legalisation of paedophilia, and they couldn't manage to find an argument against it which didn't make them sound homophobic.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 12:09

At this point PIE stepped in with their arguments that younger children also had a sexuality and should be allowed to explore it. Many on the progressive left were allowing these people a platform to argue for the legalisation of paedophilia, and they couldn't manage to find an argument against it which didn't make them sound homophobic.

This BBC article is worth reading:
'How did the pro-paedophile group PIE exist openly for 10 years?
By Tom de Castella & Tom Heyden'

27 February 2014

(extracts)
"The Paedophile Information Exchange was affiliated to the National Council for Civil Liberties - now Liberty - in the late 1970s and early 1980s. But how did pro-paedophile campaigners operate so openly?

A gay rights conference backs a motion in favour of paedophilia. The story is written up by a national newspaper as "Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib".

It sounds like a nightmarish plotline from dystopian fiction. But this happened in the UK. The conference took place in Sheffield and the newspaper was the Guardian. The year was 1975.

It's part of the story of how paedophiles tried to go mainstream in the 1970s. The group behind the attempt - the Paedophile Information Exchange - is back in the news because of a series of stories run by the Daily Mail about Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman" (continues)

PIE was formed in 1974. It campaigned for "children's sexuality". It wanted the government to axe or lower the age of consent. It offered support to adults "in legal difficulties concerning sexual acts with consenting 'under age' partners". The real aim was to normalise sex with children.

Journalist Christian Wolmar remembers their tactics. "They didn't emphasise that this was 50-year-old men wanting to have sex with five-year-olds. They presented it as the sexual liberation of children, that children should have the right to sex," he says.

Media captionJohn Tusa interviews two members of the Paedophile Information Exchange on Newsnight in 1983
It's an ideology that seems chilling now. But PIE managed to gain support from some professional bodies and progressive groups. It received invitations from student unions, won sympathetic media coverage and found academics willing to push its message.

It's wrong to say that PIE was tolerated during the 1970s, says Times columnist Matthew Parris. "I remember a lot of indignation about it [PIE]. It was considered outrageous." (continues)

The brazenness could be shocking. Keith Hose, one of PIE's leaders during the 1970s, was quoted by a newspaper saying: "I am a paedophile. I am attracted to boys from about 10, 11, and 12 years of age. I may have had sexual relations with children, but it would be unwise to say."

When Polly Toynbee interviewed O'Carroll and Hose in the Guardian in September 1977 she heard men incredulous at the lack of support from the press. They seemed genuinely aggrieved at what they called a "Fleet Street conspiracy". One of them told her: "We would expect the Guardian, a decent liberal newspaper to support us." (continues)

There were divisions within progressive circles. In 1977 the Campaign for Homosexual Equality passed by a large majority a resolution condemning "the harassment of the Paedophile Information Exchange by the press".

When Peter Hain, then president of the Young Liberals, described paedophilia as "a wholly undesirable abnormality", a fellow activist hit back. "It is sad that Peter has joined the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade. His views are not the views of most Young Liberals."

And when a columnist supported Hain in the Guardian he was inundated with mail from people - many willing to give their name - who defended sex with children." (continues)
www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26352378

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 12:11

It's worth noting that one of the authors of the Implementation Handbook for the UNICEF Convention on the Rights of the Child was Peter Newell, a paedophile, who was later imprisoned for his crimes.

The Implementation handbook added 'sexual orientation' and 'gender identity' to the aspects of a child's identity which should be protected. It seems that, as with PIE, child sex abusers have infiltrated many organisations in order to convince the world that children have a 'sexual orientation' and 'gender identity'.

I wonder who is really pulling the strings at the BBC?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 16/03/2019 12:27

Journalist Christian Wolmar remembers their tactics. "They didn't emphasise that this was 50-year-old men wanting to have sex with five-year-olds. They presented it as the sexual liberation of children, that children should have the right to sex," he says.

We can't afford to sleepwalk into a similar situation again.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 15:24

We can't afford to sleepwalk into a similar situation again.

'My Trans Youth Group Experience with Morgan Page'
Posted on January 26, 2019
by GNC-centric

(extracts)
I first met Morgan Page in 2012 at a conference for Gay-Straight Alliances from high schools in the greater Toronto area. Though I’ve since detransitioned, I identified as trans at that time, but I didn’t know any trans people in real life, only online. Morgan was a super nice, friendly person and invited me to the youth group she ran at The 519 in Toronto (LGBT Community Centre). Most of the time, the Trans Youth Group attendees were majority MTFs and “nonbinary” (NB) males. There was an upper age limit (somewhere between 21-25) but it was a pretty small group, usually fewer than 10 people; so when people aged out they just stuck around. I guess others learned that the age limit wasn’t being enforced because more and more older (30-40 year old) MTFs started to join.

I remember one day, there were three MTFs over 40 who were hitting on the teen FTMs, very explicitly. It was obviously making us uncomfortable, but almost no one ever said anything, only changed the topic or tried to engage them in a conversation away from us. The only time I remember them being asked to leave was when Morgan was away and the group was led by an FTM substitute." (conntinues)

It was very common for the group to discuss the logistics of sex before and after SRS, kinky sex, and erotic fanfiction. I remember Morgan asking the three teens in the room, including me, if we were comfortable talking about this, but obviously we weren’t going to say no now that the conversation had already been started by these older people. I know of at least three FTMs who entered into relationships with older MTFs while in this group, all of which seemed very unhealthy to me. To me, FTMs under 18 dating or sleeping with (usually kinky) MTFs over 20 seemed very sexually exploitative. Healthy boundaries between adults and minors were foreign to this group, much like in the greater queer and trans community.

Morgan didn’t present herself as someone to emulate, but as someone to share her trans experiences with us. She spoke of her time as a teen prostitute, her SRS, her art, her writing, and her connections in the queer community. I think most of the teens saw her as someone to just give us advice and support, since she could recommend which clinics or doctors to see to start HRT and tell you what you needed to say to doctors so they’d sign off on SRS. " (continues)

One of the most memorable experiences I had there was when I was 16 and had brought my 15-year-old non-trans female friend with me. We were hanging out, talking about the usual stuff, when Morgan mentioned she was going to be a judge at the Porn Awards that night and invited my friend and I to go with her for free. We said no—I knew right away I would probably see penises, and that would make my dysphoria worse. At that point in my life I had only seen porn once, and since then had only talked to porn actors and cam girls in the queer/trans community online. I honestly thought it was all empowering and fun. Still, my gut reaction was “no,” thank god.

Morgan’s personal life would often come up. This wasn’t a problem in and of itself, but I believe it normalized some harmful behaviour for us younger people. She would talk about when she was a teen and had a 30 year old boyfriend, then one of the teen FTMs would chime in how they had an adult boyfriend. She would talk about the drugs she did as a teen—weed, coke, poppers, etc; people would chime in about doing drugs in high school. She would talk about her time as a prostitute/sex worker, and others would accept this as a normal part of most MTFs’ lives. It’s one thing to be open about these topics so teens can discuss them without fear or shame, but another to present them as typical behaviour for trans people." (continues)
4thwavenow.com/2019/01/26/my-trans-youth-group-experience-with-morgan-page/

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 15:27

December 2018

OP TheLWordNotTheQWord wrote,
" The National Lottery, Stonewall and Gay Conversion Therapy

The National Lottery have give half a million pounds of funding to Stonewall to fund trans leaders in "influencing" the public. One of these is Morgan Page a transwoman (ie a male who identifies as being a woman) who has run workshops advising other male people who identify as lesbians on "overcoming the cotton ceiling":

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1063148/national-lottery-funding-stonewall-500k-morgan-page-Aimee-Challenor-david-davis-mermaids

The "cotton ceiling" represents the barrier of lesbians' underwear (because lesbians won't have sex with them due to them being male penis-havers). A number of transactivists campaign against this, calling lesbians bigoted and "vagina fetishists" for not being willing to have sex with them and this individual ran workshops to help other male individuals to "identify the barriers and strategise ways to overcome them":

fairplayforwomen.com/lesbians-erasure-feminism-6/

How is training males on how to overcome women's boundaries and pressure lesbians to have sex with penises not a) rapey as hell and b) gay conversion therapy by another name?

Why the hell are the National Lottery and Stonewall funding this individual?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3462846-The-National-Lottery-Stonewall-and-Gay-Conversion-Therapy

Apollo440 · 16/03/2019 15:40

Any reason why Bicker's post that was well received was deleted?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 16/03/2019 15:51

apollo

I was wondering what they said..it was obviously good!

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 15:54

MN are contacting to discuss an edit.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 16/03/2019 16:08

WTF?

I am getting so sickened by women telling shattering truths about themselves and what they've endured, and some weasel finding it so threatening they find a way to convince HQ that that truth, that raw emotion, that experience of woman must be erased.

Sickened. Disgusted. These people are no friend to women.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 16/03/2019 16:08

Live and let fucking live TRA style.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 16:23

'How an Online Forum for Moms Became a Toxic Hotbed of Transphobia
Mumsnet boasts of its political influence and hosts chats with Hillary Clinton and UK politicians. So how has it become ground zero for British transphobia?'
(extract)
Since 2016, Mumsnet—specifically its Feminism board—has increasingly found itself on the receiving end of criticism from trans people and their allies. “When I started using Twitter and engaging in the trans sphere in mid-2017, Mumsnet was constantly referenced both on my timeline and in DMs,” says Joss Prior, a trans woman who is part of a sizable trans community that monitors and discusses Mumsnet regularly. “The whole of the Feminism board was like a spectre hanging over the daily trans discourse.”

Prior points to the now partially-deleted but notorious 2016 “I Am Spartacus” thread in which a user asserted that “men cannot become women, ever. Women cannot become men, ever” and went on to misgender a number of trans men and women, including high-profile campaigners Paris Lees and Danielle Muscato. The post sparked thousands of supportive comments and is consistently referenced in up-to-date threads, with “I am Spartacus” acting as a shorthand rallying call for anti-trans feminists. Attempts have even been made to organize campaigning activity around the phrase." (continues)

“It’s a core group of a few hundred hardcore trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), a tiny percentage of overall users,” says Christine, the mother of a trans child and also part of the network that regularly monitors Mumsnet. (Christine’s name has been changed for privacy reasons.) “Yet the Feminism board is just 90 percent discussions about trans people on any given day.” (continues)
broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3444548-Vice-how-an-online-forum-for-moms-became-a-toxic-hotbed-of-transphobia

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 16/03/2019 16:30

'How an Online Forum for Moms Became a Toxic Hotbed of Transphobia'

Women talk about women's rights and the safety of children is transphobic?

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 16:33

Women talk about women's rights and the safety of children is transphobic?

No its not.
Anyone actively preventing people from identifying Safeguarding issues should always be recognised as representing an additional albeit indirect risk, even if they are unaware of this.

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