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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

226 replies

NellieEllie · 15/03/2019 12:17

About to start I think.....

OP posts:
CaptainMarvelBunting · 16/03/2019 16:39

Oh, isn't that funny, (as in, not funny at all) Bicker's stunningly well put post about the reality of women's actual lives has been reported by those lovely, cuddly, live and let live types.

Put another coat of nail polish on, lovies. It won't cover that gnawing knowledge of who you really are, and who you will never be.

LangCleg · 16/03/2019 16:46

MN are contacting to discuss an edit.

Oh for fucks fucking sake. This will be presented as a fair compromise, no doubt.

Once again, I draw attention to the disparity between the promotion of the Walking on Eggshells video and, well, other things.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/03/2019 16:53

Is there an issue with weekend mods? There always seem to be more deletions and not understanding the nuances? Perhaps less experienced mods have to pull the weekend shifts?

I'm not attacking anyone and I know the mods have a very difficult job, but it does sometimes seem that guidelines are applied differently at different times?

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 17:04

It's worth remembering where the idea of 'gender identity' came from and how it came to to be seen to have such importance. I've posted about this on another thread, but it's relevant here as well (with apologies for the source).

www.christianconcern.com/our-issues/family-and-sexual-ethics/the-abusers-behind-the-idea-that-children-have-a-gender-identity

Some excerpts:

The idea that children have an innate “gender identity” that may differ from their sex has been promoted globally by influential child abusers who worked with children.

Peter Newell, the most prominent campaigner in the UK for a ban on parental smacking, was jailed for six years for historic rape of a 13-year old boy.

...the term ‘gender identity’ along with ‘gender role’ was coined in the 1950s by John Money, an American paediatrician who used it to justify gender reassignment for children and who conducted sexual experiments on children.

That the two men behind the concept of ‘gender identity’ of children and of this as an inherent aspect of a child’s identity that should be protected as a matter of human rights were child abusers should be sufficient grounds for concern.

They also say this:

The sad thing is that transgender rights activists, who promote themselves as experts on gender dysphoria, are absolutely convinced that they are doing the right thing for children by trying to make ‘gender identity’ a category in law that covers children. In so doing they unwittingly play along with such wickedness.

They seem to be saying that trans activists, along with the woke 'progressive' left, are just being used as 'useful idiots' by the people who are really orchestrating this: paedophiles.

Smartieshavetheanswer · 16/03/2019 17:26

I'd also like to know why MNHQ felt they had to delete Bickers's post.

It was a truthful, glaringly obvious account of women's and girl's reality in the wake of the huge push of Trans ideology.

So, why MN?

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 17:37

Feminist Current article:
'When lobby groups like Mermaids dictate policy and discourse around gender identity, kids lose'
OCTOBER 26, 2016 by JULIAN VIGO

(extract)
"Justice Hayden writes that J’s mother caused “significant emotional harm” to her child and critiques the local authority social services staff responsible for the youngster’s welfare.

He goes on to detail the acts of a controlling mother towards her child, M’s personal diagnosis of J’s alleged gender dysphoria, and a system which failed this child. Together, these various failures demonstrate a pattern of abuse and a mother who, Hayden writes, “deprived [her son] of his fundamental right to exercise his autonomy in its most basic way.”

What the judgment shows is that reports made by the Local Authority’s Housing Department, J’s school, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC), and Social Services gave M’s behaviour towards her child (including her approach to J’s “gender presentation”) a pass simply because she was receiving support from Mermaids, a UK-based charity that claims to support parents of children who identify as transgender. Observations like these show major conflicts of interest between Mermaids and the government agencies named in the judgement.

Susie Green, the CEO of Mermaids, began her trajectory into the transgender debate through personal investment. She took matters into her own hands regarding her son’s gender dysphoria, leaving the country for the USA, then Thailand, when the National Health Service (NHS) would not undertake the treatment she thought her child needed. Mermaids is entirely comprised of parents like Green, who have either a child who self-identifies as having gender dysphoria or have started seeking professional help for their child. Despite the fact that Mermaids is not a professional organization, it has managed to push its way into government policies such as the House of Commons Select Committee “Transgender Equality” report (within which Mermaids is referenced twenty times) and has successfully convinced local school systems and councils that its form of “support” is tantamount to professional ethos.

In short, we have governmental policies being decided via a support group that functions as a political lobby — a political lobby which justifies its authority because of government championing. (The NHS, for example, cites Mermaids as “a charity that helps children with gender identity issues and their families.”) More surreal is the fact that some of the Mermaids members regularly give lectures to nursing students and NHS staff. The fact that medical and legal documents are produced by basically taking the word of desperate, if not confused, parents equates to both a shocking oversight and the tail wagging the dog.

Make no mistake, Mermaids is not a body of psychologists or trained healthcare professionals — it is merely a group of parents who have a child they believe to be transgender. Unlike other professional organizations, Mermaids is just a support group and therefore not accountable to medical and psychological bodies or government institutions. Under the leadership of Green, Mermaids harbours vested interests in dictating political discourse around transgender identity." (continues)
www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/26/lobby-groups-like-mermaids-dictate-policy-discourse-around-gender-identity-kids-lose/

truthisarevolutionaryact* wrote, "The case of Child J is a dire warning about the harm that can befall a child when an ideology is allowed to influence decision making in safeguarding cases:

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html "

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3534509-Mail-article-children-going-into-care-to-change-sex

NameChangeForTheNewYear · 16/03/2019 18:01

Don't want a gay child? There's a solution, you can have a straight child - all you have to do is to change their bodies.

This. I've seen two or three videos (clips from documentaries) where one of the parents says as much. There's one from the US, a feminine, pretty looking blonde boy, who the mother says was acting gay. Her comments were along the lines of No Way, then she also confesses to being pushed into action (which meant transing her son ) after reading in the news about another parent who had beaten their child to death over their fears that the child was gay. And no wanting things to end up like that for her son. So hey presto, he's a she and it's all good!

They say this, out loud, on camera. Always religious types. In fact, hasn't something been said publically in the Mermaids back story that suggests a link between SG and religious belief?

Smartieshavetheanswer · 16/03/2019 18:08

R0wan your research is nothing short of spectacular on this.

Thank you.

R0wantrees · 16/03/2019 18:21

Smarties The information is throughout this board. I'm happy to do what I can to link it together. Smile

Safeguarding children and vulnerable adults is so important and the systemic failures are frightening.

Popchyk · 16/03/2019 20:46

Interesting link here, regarding the religion thing.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5926807/Are-children-young-11-really-capable-making-life-changing-decisions-gender.html

Kye Mackin says "I realised I was trans after going on the internet.... My parents are Christians and it was terrifying wondering if they’d support me when I came out. A man had been thrown out of the church we went to at the time just for being gay".

Doesn't mention that Neil Mackin (their father) is a trustee at Mermaids.

From the same article:

Catherine Green states "Mum is a Christian. She was finding it really hard to reconcile it with her faith and was encountering transphobia in her church. I explained it was about my gender, not my sexuality. To start with I had thought I was gay — and so did she. Then I learnt about transgender and it fitted with everything I felt."

Poppy Tine states "Dad, who is Muslim, didn’t understand about trans to start with, which made me sad".

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 16/03/2019 20:50

MNHQ

When is bickers post at 07:01 16/3/19 coming back

Please and thank you

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 20:52

Catherine Green states "Mum is a Christian. She was finding it really hard to reconcile it with her faith and was encountering transphobia in her church. I explained it was about my gender, not my sexuality. To start with I had thought I was gay — and so did she. Then I learnt about transgender and it fitted with everything I felt."

And there it is. Trans away the gay. Just like in Iran.

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 21:17

Always religious types. In fact, hasn't something been said publically in the Mermaids back story that suggests a link between SG and religious belief?

Not all the religious types are backing this. See the Christian Concern article I posted earlier.

Also this article

The Christian Post is using pseudonyms in this report and has changed or removed identifying details in order to maintain her anonymity. Although she was baptized as a Methodist, Wilson is not a subscriber to any particular religious faith but chose to speak with CP because she felt it was important that the voice of a grandmother is heard as more parents speak out about their heartache of losing their children to what many are calling a transgender "social contagion." She has reached out to many secular journalists to no avail.

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3534953-Harrowing-story-of-a-grandmother-whose-grandson-is-due-to-be-transed

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 21:17

Always religious types. In fact, hasn't something been said publically in the Mermaids back story that suggests a link between SG and religious belief?

Not all the religious types are backing this. See the Christian Concern article I posted earlier.

Also this article

The Christian Post is using pseudonyms in this report and has changed or removed identifying details in order to maintain her anonymity. Although she was baptized as a Methodist, Wilson is not a subscriber to any particular religious faith but chose to speak with CP because she felt it was important that the voice of a grandmother is heard as more parents speak out about their heartache of losing their children to what many are calling a transgender "social contagion." She has reached out to many secular journalists to no avail.

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3534953-Harrowing-story-of-a-grandmother-whose-grandson-is-due-to-be-transed

OldCrone · 16/03/2019 21:18

Sorry about the double post, MN seems to be playing up at the moment.

CaptainMarvelBunting · 16/03/2019 21:23

Proper does my nut in, the Christians pushing this, especially with this not-so-subtle anti gay motive. Coming to terms with my sexuality in relation to my faith was emotionally crippling for a long time, and I'm still not done, I don't think. To see this kind of conversion therapy that takes everything to the next level is horrifying.

I was prayed over, cajoled, coerced, had long, intense sessions of 'deliverance' to cast out 'demons of homosexuality', and eventually raped by a 'prophet'. But even that, horrific as it was, hadn't quite reached the level of drugging your own child to stunt their development and lying to them that they were the opposite sex, and eventually would need unnecessary and experimental surgery.

To do these things and still claim the God of Love as your Lord makes bile rise in my throat.

Popchyk · 16/03/2019 21:50

That is heartbreaking, Captain.

I hope you have some peace now.

CaptainMarvelBunting · 16/03/2019 22:06

Sometimes, Popchyk, yes. Other times I see what my co-religionists still do and I just curl up inside.

This is a fight worth fighting, though, and there is definitely a modicum of peace in that, however many missteps I have taken.

NameChangeForTheNewYear · 17/03/2019 07:09

You're right, OldCrone. It's not all religious types but religion is absolutely a common feature of many "my child is trans" narratives.

Fazackerley · 17/03/2019 07:54

They deleted Bickers post?! Shock

Why??

Catquest1 · 17/03/2019 09:28

I listened to this segment on the radio.

Im not sure of its been mentioned further up thread (just catching up on yesterdays posts) but I did get slightly confused when Susie Green was saying that the debate always comes back to genitalia unnecessarily (paraphrasing) and that men who lose their body parts in war are still men despite this loss. Surely thats contradictory to her argument? By folllowing that line of discussion people who undergo surgical reassignment are still biologically the same sex at a chromosome level despite this? Despite how they may feel? I had hoped JV might have picked up on that and explored it further.

The only other comparison i could think of is women who undergo mastectomies or hysterectomies for health reasons. Still women despite surgery from the women ive known undergo such surgeries.

I have read many threads on here so i am aware that sometimes logic isnt always a prequistie in these discussions

TemporaryPermanent · 17/03/2019 15:14

Really? She compared people like her own child to victims of war atrocities? Remind me how her child lost their original genitals again? And exactly how intelligent is she?

LangCleg · 17/03/2019 15:40

They deleted Bickers post?

It's back now, edited by MNHQ.

I remember very clearly what was taken out.

OhHolyJesus · 17/03/2019 16:03

I noticed that too Catquest, if a man without a penis is still a man then her son is not her daughter but still her son, just wish long hair and a 'penis pocket' as I like to call the inverted penises.

Or was she saying that a man without a penis is still a man if he feels like one.

I thought it was hilarious that she said she had read lots of studies and therefore implied she was perhaps better informed than the qualified doctor opposing her view.

The ego on that woman is astounding.

BickerinBrattle · 17/03/2019 16:19

Oh, sorry all — I was offline for a few days and didn’t see @MNHQ’s request to edit. I agreed to the edit, no problem.

And thanks to many of you for agreeing with what I wrote.

People severely underestimate the depth of courage, breadth of knowledge and experience, and sheer persistence of mothers.

Well, those who do that underestimating get a lesson, don't they, when they come to MN?

💪 women together.