Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

[NellieEllie]

About to start I think.....

Lots of teenagers are capable and do think about these things, though, and see it for the nonsense that it is.

Indeed. Mine come at this from a free speech and anti-authoritarian angle rather than any feminist angle, much as SleepingSloth might like to pretend otherwise. It came as quite the shock to them to discover that campus was more censorious than the family dinner table.

Of course you don't, dear.

Dear ???

They're fucking furious that people are actually pushing for boys to be able to compete with them.

Boys? Do you means trans girls.

There's some lovely people on this thread. So glad I posted.

Boys? Do you means trans girls

Transgirls (boys who identify as girls) are biologically male. Transboys (girls who identify as boys) are biologically female.

Just clarifying as people often think that "trans girls" means girls who are trans (identifying as not girl), and it gets confusing when folk are talking at cross purposes.

"Boys? Do you means trans girls."

"transgirls" is a gender
Their sex is "boy"
It is impossible for a human to change sex - scientific fact.

I didn't hear all of this segment, just the second half.

Was there any talk of what transitioning might do for these young people's future sex lives/family aspirations? I guess most 13 year olds can't really comprehend that they might one day want to have biological children or enjoy a normal sex life but it doesn't seem to be ever really mentioned by any adults discussing it.

It was very one sided. A few token nuggets of dissent but very much of the 'stunning and brave' tone.

Yes thanks andy

And sleeping many people think transgenderism is a kind of dangerous cult-like belief system and many avoid using any of its misleading terms to avoid lending it any credence.

And sleeping many people think transgenderism is a kind of dangerous cult-like belief system and many avoid using any of its misleading terms to avoid lending it any credence.

I know many people think it is but many people don't think this.

Nice bit of misogyny there

I only heard the beginning of the segment (with the mum) and she came across as being supportive of her dc but not someone who wanted this at all, certainly not like that woman on the American tv show I am Jazz! I don't think anyone here can really understand unless we have experienced this first hand and I'm not sure if anyone really knows why it has become so common. In 20 years time we will have more answers I suspect and just like homosexuality, it won't be seen as contentious, just a variation on human life. We do need to protect everyone, and there's plenty of sensible non sensational ways to do this. Women's sport is a side issue and is something that can be addressed too by experts rather than those looking for a fight.

Dd has several trans friends and none of them choose to feel this way, one has not gone through with it, one has mostly transitioned and the other 2 live as the opposite gender but not taking hormones yet. Don't close your mind unless you meet real people. As a rule I personally think that under 18's should not be allowed anything that's life altering (dress how you please though) but after that it's up to them, just my feelings.

I know many people think it is but many people don't think this.

SleepingSloth There's a short speech by Sheila Jeffries about 'what is gender'.
Its a consise summary of Sheila Jeffries understandings of transgenderism as part of the men's sexual rights movement & why children are significant to this:

I feel very uncomfortable when a child is used for ‘entertainment’ on the radio. It is their private business, not anyone else’s. By all means get the parents on for an interview but respect the child’s privacy.
The child is being lied to....they have size 10 feet for goodness sake, they will find passing as a woman very hard, which will no doubt be upsetting for them. Surely it’s better to support them through puberty as it’s proven that 80% of children with gender dysphoria, accept their sex AFTER puberty.

I personally don't care if people 'transition', what I care about is ensuring the safety of women and girls with sex segregation, and ensuring children are safe and not given unnecessary drugs that will long term impact of their health.

It's closed minded to abolish sex segregation and to encourage children into gender stereotypes and a life time of drugs.

What did I miss?!

My younger DC contributed to me reaching peak trans. I was wholly unaware this was even a topic at high school, we'd never discussed the issue as I wasn't interested at that time. In the middle of a normal conversation he accused me of assuming his gender. I was flummoxed at first, then told him that I had no need to assume as I'd given birth to him (thinking he was conflating sex and gender). Then he said he was just taking the mickey out of this rubbish they'd been taught at school.

Almost at the same time my youngest came home saying "you never guess what nonsense they taught us today". That if you were a boy who liked to wear or do girl things you might really be a boy and vice versa. And that you could get medicine to turn you into one.

Only contributing factors in my journey to be sure, but they saw this for what it was - unmitigated, unscientific bollocks of the highest order. I also got the impression that the trans identifying kids come across as drama llamas (there's a lot of eye-rolling involved).

My oldest at university was the only one who took this quasi-religious claptrap at face value. Turns out he'd been thoroughly confused by the TRA tactic of co-opting people with DSDs to prop up trans identities. He honestly thought that trans people were both male and female and through surgery and hormones would more properly turn into one of the two sexes. That took a while to unpick but we did get there in the end.

Now the whole family is GC. And btw if you'd heard my son and me fighting over Jordan Peterson, you'd know no one in this family is afraid to express their opinions. We love a robust debate. I only wish my son wouldn't start them at ten at night when the only thing I want is some peace and quiet.

Surely the medical profession should have a say in this. People who feel they wish to change sex, no matter the age, must have professional counselling but especially children and that is exactly what a13 yo is, a child. As a child I was far happier playing with boys, playing football, soldiers, cowboys and Indians etc, I wanted to be a boy, but I never once thought of changing my sex. Times are different now though and I feel social media, radio and television all pressurise children into thoughts they may never have had on their own, I was a tomboy not a transgender. Im not saying that someone who feels they are a different sex to which they were born are wrong this must be their choice but I do feel sometimes others are too eager to facillitate this. 13 imo is too young to decide this and although it may mean living for a few more years as the wrong sex its safeguarding against a decision at a very young age you may later regret. I don't say this lightly feeling you're trapped in the wrong body must be a horrible experience but so must growing older having made the change only to discover you were wrong be, which is what children are being left wide open to now.

anniehm I have met real trans people. I have also read all the science about transsexualism and the homosexual children who made up 99.99% of children who grew up to continue identifying as trans into adulthood. And I also know someone who was given puberty blockers (for different reasons) for a short time and who alongside all of their friends who also got them are all suffering from some or many of the described long-term ill-effects of the blockers.

What we will find in 20 years time is plenty of lawsuits and a well deserved reckoning for medical experimentation on children who are mostly gay and/or on the spectrum and/or traumatised and vulnerable. Adults who medically transitioned had to sign away all of their rights in disclaimers, but these children cannot give informed consent because the treatments are experimental. Once one court rules that way, the floodgates will open.

Then we'll have anguished hand-wringing about how no one could have known, how they were only trying to support their children, how they meant well and so on. And the finger-pointing will begin.

The science is there right now to understand that what is going on is not a natural surge in the occurrence of an extremely rare medical condition.

You don't have to be a maths whizz or medical expert to know that going from 6 in 100.000 children who identify as trans to 2000 in 100.000 is not a normal development. And that 6 typically started out as 30 who had gender dysphoria, with 24 or so desisting. In order to not do harm to the latter, the former had to wait much longer for treatment under the watchful waiting approach.

Now that has gone out the window with the instant affirmation approach and TRAs, lobby groups and misinformed, well-meaning parents are clamouring for medicalising their children at ever younger ages without waiting to see which of those 2000 children will desist (which they still do btw, in the same numbers as before but only as long as they're not medicalised - do you see the problem?)

I don't think anyone here can really understand unless we have experienced this first hand and I'm not sure if anyone really knows why it has become so common. In 20 years time we will have more answers I suspect and just like homosexuality, it won't be seen as contentious, just a variation on human life. We do need to protect everyone, and there's plenty of sensible non sensational ways to do this. Women's sport is a side issue and is something that can be addressed too by experts rather than those looking for a fight.

You're not troubled by the fact that this was a very rare phenomenon for thousands of years of human history and just in the last ten years it's suddenly snowballed?

Or the fact that teenage girls are declaring themselves transboys in clusters, the classic sign of social contagion?

What about the fact that very few older women transition - almost everyone who transitions is either a child or young teenager or an adult male. Why would that be? Could it possibly be that older women have got through the difficult days of adolescence and learned to accept their bodies, even to enjoy aspects of being female?

Meanwhile for many of the adult men transitioning there is abundant evidence that there is a strong fetishistic element. That's a very different group from gender dysphoric children and teenagers but we're treating them as one homogeneous group with the same rights.

It was a very clever move of trans rights activists to get themselves added onto LGB rights groups. The T has very little to do with LGB. But now lots of decent, liberal people who support gay rights feel this means they should also support trans rights, even though once you start thinking about it there are some obvious conflicts between gay rights and trans rights, just as there are conflicts between women's rights and trans rights.

Next step, relentless pressure to stop people questioning transideology and looking critically at issues such as transition of children by labelling anything other than instant agreement as transphobic - again piggybacking on the great success of getting most people to accept that homophobic behaviour is socially unacceptable - but homophobia takes the form of discriminating against or attacking lesbians and gay men, verbally or physically - of course most people reject that utterly! Get yourself labelled as transphobic, though, and you will be the one on the receiving end of threats of violence, actual violence, attempts to get you sacked and no platformed, and all this is perfectly fine because questioning an idea is literal violence so you're just getting your comeuppance. When did gay rights activists behave like this?

Final step, label LGB people as transphobic for not accepting people of the opposite sex as sexual partners. Tell them that gender is what matters, not sex. At this point the cuckoo has really taken over the nest.

Not every new social movement is benign. No new social movement should ever be immune from critical evaluation.

Susie Green CEO Mermaids talking about she knows that puberty blockers are 'safe & reversable' because she follows "all the studies"

recently published long article:
'Tavistock’s Experimentation with Puberty Blockers: Scrutinizing the Evidence'
by Michael Biggs, Dept of Sociology, University of Oxford
2 March 2019

(extract)
"In 2010, Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) launched a trial of puberty blockers for children in their early teens with gender dysphoria. This was—and remains—an experimental treatment. These drugs, Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone agonists (GnRHa), have not been certified as a safe or effective treatment for gender dysphoria by their manufacturers, nor by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence.

The Director of GIDS, Polly Carmichael, was keenly aware of the controversy over these drugs. ‘The question is, if you halt your own sex hormones so that your brain is not experiencing puberty, are you in some way altering the course of nature?’ (Guardian, 14 August 2008). ‘[T]he debate revolves around the reversibility of this intervention—physical and also psychological, in terms of the possible influence of sex hormones on brain and identity development’ (Carmichael and Davidson 2009). Before 2010, GIDS administered blockers to children only when they reached 16; this is the age at which young people have the presumptive capacity to consent to medical treatment.

This cautious approach was vociferously opposed by two organizations devoted to transgendering of children, Mermaids and the Gender Identity Research and Education Society. As Carmichael later recounted: ‘There was a lot of pressure coming from certain group [sic] to introduce it—families were travelling abroad because they knew it was available in Holland and America. As a service, we didn’t have the evidence one way or the other, so the best way to do it was as part of a research study’ (Vice, 16 November 2016).

Tavistock Trust announced the study on its website in April 2011. It stated that GnRHa treatment ‘is deemed reversible’. This assertion contradicted the study’s own research protocol (which I obtained under Freedom of Information from the NHS Health Research Authority). ‘It is not clear [my emphasis] what the long term effects of early suppression may be on bone development, height, sex organ development, and body shape and their reversibility if treatment is stopped during pubertal development’ (Early Pubertal Suppression in a Carefully Selected Group of Adolescents with Gender Identity Disorder, 4 November 2010, Research Ethics Committee number 10/H0713/79). A paediatrician on the study team, Russell Viner, frankly acknowledged the risks. ‘If you suppress puberty for three years the bones do not get any stronger at a time when they should be, and we really don’t know what suppressing puberty does to your brain development. We are dealing with unknowns’ (Daily Mail, 25 February 2012

Even before the final patient was enrolled, Carmichael announced success to the tabloid press. ‘Now we’ve done the study and the results thus far have been positive we’ve decided to continue with it’ (Daily Mail, 17 May 2014). In fact the decision had already been made, at least six months earlier (Daily Mail, 17 November 2013). Tavistock Trust then embraced the drug regime with enthusiasm. Three years later, GIDS (and its satellite operation in Leeds) had prescribed puberty blockers for a total of 800 adolescents under 18, including 230 children under 14 (Daily Mail, 30 July 2017). By 2018, new prescriptions were running at 300 per year (BBC News, 2 July 2018). Freedom of Information requests have failed to elicit more recent figures because GIDS does not collate basic data on this experimental treatment—and neither does the University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which provides its endocrinology services.

Over a thousand adolescents have been given puberty blockers on the basis that the 2010–14 study yielded ‘positive’ results. Tavistock is surprisingly reticent to share these results with the scientific community. GIDS has a webpage on the evidence base for puberty blockers. It notes that ‘research evidence for the effectiveness of any particular treatment offered is still limited.’ There is no mention of its own study; it cites only research from the Netherlands. The former director of GIDS stated last year that the ‘project is ongoing and the results are yet to be published’ (De Ceglie 2018).

Diligent searching does, however, uncover some unpublished results. Most revealing is an appendix within a report to Tavistock’s Board of Directors (Carmichael 2015). It tracks the first 44 children on GnRHa, measuring changes after one year of the drug regime. The text is sometimes internally inconsistent and occasionally contradicts the tabulated figures, suggesting that it was prepared in haste. But we can summarize those changes that were reported as statistically significant (p-value < .05). Only one change was positive: ‘according to their parents, the young people experience less internalizing behavioural problems’ (as measured by the Child Behavior Checklist). There were three negative changes. ‘Natal girls showed a significant increase in behavioural and emotional problems’, according to their parents (also from the Child Behavior Checklist, contradicting the only positive result). One dimension of the Health Related Quality of Life scale, completed by parents, ‘showed a significant decrease in Physical well-being of their child’. What is most disturbing is that after a year on blockers, ‘a significant increase was found in the first item “I deliberately try to hurt or kill self”’ (in the Youth Self Report questionnaire). (continues)

concludes:
To summarize, GIDS launched a study to administer experimental drugs to children suffering from gender dysphoria. Between 2010 and 2014, puberty blockers were given to 50 children. This study yielded only one published scientific article on outcomes. It showed no evidence for the effectiveness of GnRHa: there was no statistically significant difference in psychosocial functioning between the group given blockers and the group given only psychological support. In addition, there is unpublished evidence that after a year on GnRHa children reported greater self-harm, and that girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed greater dissatisfaction with their body—so puberty blockers exacerbated gender dysphoria. Yet the study has been used to justify rolling out this drug regime to several hundred children aged under 16. Almost five years after the last patient was enrolled in the experiment, there is no evidence to substantiate Carmichael’s claim ‘that the results thus far have been positive’."

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

Yeah we should not be labelling children trans girls or boys

They are girls or boys
Nowt more

They can’t drink drive buy fags get married
For a reason

Where is gender identity located? Beside the soul, or inside of it? In the hippocampus? In the pituitary gland? How is it tested for? What scans or blood tests confirm its diagnosis? Or what drug protocol ruling out other disorders until the GID can be the only remaining diagnosis, as is often the course for suspected schizophrenia or bipolor disorder?

What less invasive treatments are tried first, as physical therapy is tried before back surgery, since like transition back surgery has questgionable or even unasceertainable long-term benefit (per Cochrane Review)?

Oh, wait. It's not a disorder, it's an identity. But one that requirex llifelong medical care. So, as it's not a disorder, it's not subject to medical protocol. Just medical expense. It's an identity and therefore can't be diagnosed, simply declared. Like sexual orientation. Which, however, can be observed materially in the body via changes in arousal seen throughout the body, including the brain. I suppose we can observe gender identity materially in the world through chsnges in the body manifested by fashion and haircut choices. Exept that those aren't necessary and people who claim no gender identity make the exact same fashion and haircut choices.

So what is this thing, gender identity? Surely it should be pinned down a bit more than "it's what anyone says it is" if we're going to change our entire social structue and understanding of legally protected classes because of it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

So what is this thing, gender identity? Surely it should be pinned down a bit more than "it's what anyone says it is" if we're going to change our entire social structue and understanding of legally protected classes because of it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

'Trans awareness campaigner' Katie Yeomans describes 'dressing up as a girl as a laugh' for a fancy dress party and how within a few weeks came to the realisation/belief of being transgender and promptly embarked on affirming medical intervention.
Katie Yeomans makes clear there was no prior indication of being trans.

Describes how speedily transgenderism was diagnosed, passport changed to 'female' etc

Currently in dispute with train company having being 'misgendered'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6812641/Transgender-woman-demands-apology-2-500-compensation-Southern-staff-call-sir-twice.html

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=50&v=m9Jvq2nMa8Y

I only wish my son wouldn't start them at ten at night when the only thing I want is some peace and quiet.

HA! That's what the husband says about ours!