Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

[NellieEllie]

About to start I think.....

anniehm, you say Don't close your mind unless you meet real people and list the friends of your dc who are currently in the grip of this distressing phenomenon. Don't imagine for a second that many, many of us on this board aren't in the same position, with kids we've known since babyhood suddenly wanting their history wiped from collective memory and a new name, sex and identity accepted without the bat of an eyelid or a doubt or question raised.

We have met these people. They're in our families, and our friends' families. We see what's going on at close hand. That's precisely why we're worried.

In 20 years time we will have more answers I suspect and just like homosexuality, it won't be seen as contentious, just a variation on human life. We do need to protect everyone, and there's plenty of sensible non sensational ways to do this.

I think you're right. It just takes people time to get used to and attitudes to change. I'm sure some people will never accept it just like some people don't accept homosexuality even now.

It just takes people time to get used to

Funny that this ideology actually takes a comprehensive programme of suppression of free thought and expression coupled with mass propaganda and indoctrination.

If it were just 'time', the fraud would be immediately exposed and everyone would be thinking 'wtf just happened there?'.

It needs hard, fast, relentless, well-funded machine-gunning of bullshit so people are so bewildered and punch drunk they will accept any illogical crap that gets thrown at them - not something as natural and inevitable as 'time'.

A lot of those people who don't accept homosexuality now are precisely those people who insist that their children are transgender.

That's the issue.

Can't believe how blind some people are to this.

Transgenderism is often gay and lesbian conversion therapy. It doesn't sit alongside homosexuality; it attempts to "cure" it.

Don't want a gay child? There's a solution, you can have a straight child - all you have to do is to change their bodies.

*Funny that this ideology actually takes a comprehensive programme of suppression of free thought and expression coupled with mass propaganda and indoctrination

I don't think it does. I'm not sure the feminism board is representative of what most people really think. I find most people are open minded and are very much live and let live.

I think it's less 'live and let live" and more "I'm alright Jack". Once people start to see the harm being done to themselves, their loved ones or things they care about, attitudes start to change.

I'm not sure the feminism board is representative of what most people really think.

Indeed there is an exceptionally high calibre of thinking on FWR.

most people are open minded and are very much live and let live

Most people can't be arsed to give it much thought.

However 'letting' a group 'live' in such a way that inhibits how others are able to live, for example branding people who disagree heretics who deserve punishment, or denying others the right to a name or acknowledgement of their specific needs, means that all the airy-fairy platitudes, denial and sweeping under the rug that allowed that monster to rise needs re-examination.

Unfortunately if you have a blanket ruling to 'live and let live' this includes letting the clinically insane, the abusers, the selfish and greedy, etc live as they wish - and for everyone else, society and life will be unsafe, insecure and chaotic. At some point we have to define boundaries and maintain them.

Much more succinct than me howls

I find most people are open minded and are very much live and let live.

As someone sharper that me observed,

"some people are so open-minded, their brains have fallen out"

Indeed there is an exceptionally high calibre of thinking on FWR.

Snort.

"some people are so open-minded, their brains have fallen out"

Double snort.

I had too much wine to trust myself to answer these posts more than that. 🍷

I find most people are open minded and are very much live and let live.

They don't really think that men can be women though, I promise you. I think it's you who is a tad out of touch with what most people think. Enjoy your drink!

Can I talk about Leo (YouTube Vid linked from earlier)?

Aargh I feel torn. For the first time in years, I'm wondering wtf what to think.

Leo spoke so well, from the heart, genuine case of dysphoria? Is it?

But then, I think, is Lily a genuine butch woman in the making (PLEASE MN - I'm not being disrespectful intentionally - these are my honest thoughts)? Is Lily a tomboy?

Has anyone discussed this with Leo and stated categorically that gender is a complete pile of shite and that they are who they fucking are, warts and all, no matter what? Everything Leo said was about hair, clothes and interests - bloody superficial stereotypical shite. Has Tavistock/Mum examined this with Leo? Have they asked what is wrong with being a butch girl?

Then and I hate myself for this I see the stretcher in Leo's earlobe which has clearly been there long enough to make a significant stretch of Leo's 13 yr old skin and think wtf??! What parent allows that small but very significant and permanent change to their biology and if they can do THIS, then.....trying not to judge but failing badly. are my daughters earrings that different??

I hope my ramblings make sense - I feel torn about this for the first time ever. Stephen Whittle also makes me feel
Torn - as he said "I was made to feel mentally ill - but really I just didn't suit my female body" (probably paraphrasing here). I admit that my defences have been on red alert with MtF Transwomen and the effects their demands have on women's and girls spaces but looking at Leo - a Transgirl - I feel utter compassion. I'm torn.

Unfortunately if you have a blanket ruling to 'live and let live' this includes letting the clinically insane, the abusers, the selfish and greedy, etc live as they wish - and for everyone else, society and life will be unsafe, insecure and chaotic. At some point we have to define boundaries and maintain them.

YY.

Smartieshavetheanswer

The accounts from young women who have detransitioned are worth reading /listening to. They thought they had to be be trans boys/men.
Many of the girls are lesbians & there are high levels of girls who've been abused.

Its impossible not to feel huge amounts of compassion and concern as well as admiration.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507109-Pique-Resilience-Project-young-detransitioned-women-sharing-their-personal-stories

I'm not sure the feminism board is representative of what most people really think.

All robust polling on this has the levels of positive support for the gender religion at between 13% and 18%. Even Penis News reported this.

So I'd say FWR is pretty representative.

It’s only if you are rich enough to have this angst going on about your gender

This stuff does not happen in ordinary poeple# lives
They got the time to fart about on SM and their parents have the time to spend time on this
Or their kids feel this is the only way they will get attention off thei4 parents

But ther3 is a more sinister thing going on here led by just a few ppl
As we have seen

And I don’t understand how it’s not so obvious

Try Glinner's thread for how many, many women moved from 'live and let live' and being active allies to realising that transgender ideology is anything but live and let live.

The shift in thinking only ever happens one way. Usually when someone who was vaguely aware of the nice, surface bits, realises about things like the cotton ceiling, no right to a female hcp, rapists in prison, that kind of thing.

'Women's sport is a side issue and can be safely left to the experts'

I guess anything is a side issue to people who don't give a shit about it.

Competing in women's sport against women has been one of the most central experiences of my life, particularly my young adult life. It changed everything for me. And that's because I was good, and was worth coaching. I would never have been good enough to be coached and to get better if men had been able to compete as women. I got the last place in my university's reserve team, so one male entering the female development squad would have seen me knocked out.

You know what isn't a side issue? Whether transwomen are women, and transmen are men. Because they aren't, and women's sport brings this into painful relief. This thing, idea, mantra 'transwomen are women' that a few months ago was being chanted by groups at the behest of the Minister for Equalities, has run into something that people actually care about. Because who really cares when female prisoners get sexually assaulted by a man, or when girls are told that desiring other women means they must be a boy? Who gives a shit about disadvantaged women and the sexual development of girls, particularly lesbian girls? Very few people. But people do give a shit about SOME sports - the ones that make money. That may be a very depressing view of humanity, but it is true. Nobody cared very much about fell running, when Lauren Jeska was dominating the women's competition for several years at the expense of women, but they do care and pay to see women's tennis and Olympic swimming and athletics. And female athletes in those sports are valuable endorsers of products. Where there is money, it's suddenly not a side issue any more, and people are listening.

Leaving it to the experts resulted in the International Olympic Committee rules, which have now been explained as being a system designed to allow male athletes to compete as women - the option of keeping women's sport for women wasn't on the table. The end justified the means. Where else did this happen?

And then it really starts mattering. What are children struggling with their adolescence and the world being told? That they can change sex? Children being told lies about themselves is not a side issue. Children being drugged without evidence is not a side issue. Children's mental health being abandoned is not a side issue.

Try Glinner's thread for how many, many women moved from 'live and let live' and being active allies to realising that transgender ideology is anything but live and let live.

Glinner's thread:
"I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518546-help-a-brother-out

I suppose it depends on parents views on it. If parents are outspoken and are putting a lot of effort into being vocal about it being nonsense, their kids will probably follow, either because they genuinely agree or are possibly scared to disagree. We don't discuss it much, just as and when things come up.

Nope, although I’m quite active online on female rights- i had never mentioned it to my kids as wanted them to find their own way- i still foundvsvwhole convo on tern’s phone where he and his friends were sarcastically mocking the whole identity politics nonsense

All robust polling on this has the levels of positive support for the gender religion at between 13% and 18%. Even Penis News reported this.

So I'd say FWR is pretty representative.

Absolutely, Lang.

i still foundvsvwhole convo on tern’s phone where he and his friends were sarcastically mocking the whole identity politics nonsense

Wouldn't you rather they had a sensible discussion instead of sarcastically mocked?

If everyone is so "live and let live" why are women not permitted to "live and let live"? Why must women change absolutely everything, from the very definition of the word "women" to their sports teams to the words they're no longer allowed to use to discuss bodily issues they're no long allowed to mention (triggering, don't you know) -- like uterus and endometriosis, cervic and pap smear, breasts and breastfeeding?

Why, in this live and let live world, are women not allowed to engage in women-only activities without being told to die in a fire, barraged by men in balaclavas or being threatened with hanging (yes c.f. Baltimore LGBTQ.) Why are dykes harrassed and knocked to the ground in a dyke march by transactivists wielding pinkand-blue baseball bats? Why are dykes, in this live and let live world, not allowed to say they don't like dick? Why in this live and let live world is it not okay for women to have one, just one, rape shelter to themselves?

What you really are advocating for, in quite the supercilious tone, Sloth is a live-and-let-live world in which no one permits women to live and let live. No, women must OBEY. Males. That is who they must obey. There's nothing new or revolutionary there -- that demand is as old as the plow.

And as long as women smile prettily and agree to shove it on over for males, to yield whatever space and language and blowjob the men and girldicks want, then and only then will this oh so new and progressive world allow women to live and let live. If women don't like it, if they don't want to shower beside naked men, if they'd rather not wash miscarriage blood off their hands along with a bunch of men at the sinks, if they'd rather not go into a track meet knowing they have no chance against their male competitors, if they'd rather not have a male doctor shove his hand up their vaginas while giving them a pap smear, if they'd rather not after surgery wake to find a man in the hospital bed beside theirs, or wake in a hostel to find a strange man in the bed beside theirs -- well they can stay home, right?

But one of the strongest weapons against totalitarianism is humour. And lucky for humourists everywhere, gassy self-righteousness is easily punctured.

So I say: Mock away, teenagers! You in fact are in very good company -- c.f. Bertolt Brecht.

post edited by MNHQ

Bicker very well said.

bicker

Brilliant 👏