Jeremy Vine, R2 13 yr old trans girl on next (Friday 15/03)

[NellieEllie]

About to start I think.....

Thanks @MNHQ for editing the post. Much appreciated.

Ah God. Look who fucking reported it.

And moreover is keen to point out that they got what they wanted.

Jolly good silencing of women. Well done.

Live and let live, innit?
Also known as Shut up unless I say so.

And moreover is keen to point out that they got what they wanted

Thats very poor form

Great post bicker

SleepingSloth

Why are you so keen to censor our discussion? If you disagree with people, why not engage with the content and explain to us why we're wrong? For example, I'd like you to expand on something you said earlier in response to someone saying that kids don't believe that they can change sex:

Agreed. That's why it's trans gender. Kids I know seem to see gender as a real thing. The world is changing and I think will look very different in 20/30 years.

If gender isn't sex, but it is 'real', what exactly is it, in your view? And if it's not the same as sex, why do young people feel they need to physically alter the sex characteristics of their bodies in order to identify as the opposite 'gender'?

They best way to get people to come round to your point of view is to calmly and coherently explain why your view is the right one. Censorship of what you think is the wrong view helps no one. Shutting down discussion just makes everyone more sure that they are right, but doesn't aid understanding.

Great to see your excellent post back up, Bicker. I wish I could remember what was in the original that was edited out.

Why are you so keen to censor our discussion?

IIRC the original post, the objection was to genderism being compared with other anti-woman ideologies in recent history.

Which is... enlightening.

Gender as a “real” thing?

Please define “real” in this context. I do not think that word means what you think it does.

@ohHolyJesus and @TemporaryPermanent im as sure as i can be that that was the comparison given. I might see if its available on catch up to check but listening i was instantly confused.

Hi @bickerinbrattle

I don't suppose you've got the original that you could pm me?

sloth you'll have to imagine that I'm blowing you a raspberry

Lang well, you don’t get more anti-women than silencing women on the women’s rights board.

Was it the part about the trans lobby silencing women being like the Taliban? Absolutely right IMO
and proven by what's happened

Posted too soon... Sorry

I reported to HQ as I wasn't happy with 1 line in it, they said they would ask poster if they were happy to edit. I didn't agree with much of the post but you are free to say what you like but not to say that particular thing I'm afraid. It was uncalled for and it was a terrible thing to say to anyone. You don't know my nationality of religion and I found it particularly offensive.

*nationality or religion

sloth you'll have to imagine that I'm blowing you a raspberry

Lol...I will take that. Back at ya! 😋

Very happy that the test of the post is back up as nothing wrong with you having your opinion.

Rest not test ....I think I should give up, my typing is appalling tonight!

They best way to get people to come round to your point of view is to calmly and coherently explain why your view is the right one. Censorship of what you think is the wrong view helps no one. Shutting down discussion just makes everyone more sure that they are right, but doesn't aid understanding.

I'm not really fussed about getting people to come around to my point of view. I only said what I had observed in the kids I know. I don't think I'd stand much chance of changing anyone's opinion here even if I wanted to. My view is that the world moves forward, it will go the way the majority want it to and I'm happy to let the next generation decide what the world they live in is like. If others want to fight it, also fine.

I don't want your overall views censored. It was just 1 line.

I don't think I'd stand much chance of changing anyone's opinion here even if I wanted to.

No, you wouldn't. You'd need a better argument than 'the world moves forward'. Especially when gender ideology is trying to make us move backwards in time.

No, you wouldn't. You'd need a better argument than 'the world moves forward'. Especially when gender ideology is trying to make us move backwards in time.

I have my reasons for my views, just genuinely no desire to share or push them on anyone else. I know nothing would change my mind so I don't expect to change anyone else's.

There was a point in time when progressive, forward-looking types thought eugenics was the future, Sloth. Be careful which bit of history you’re deciding to anoint as “right.”

www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-forgotten-lessons-of-the-american-eugenics-movement

I particularly enjoyed this quote from the linked article:

Cohen writes that there was widespread skepticism about eugenics among those whom Oliver Wendell Holmes once referred to as “the thick-fingered clowns we call the people,” but the opposition wasn’t large or organized enough to effectively counter the influential network behind the movement.

Goodness, where have we heard that before...?

My view is that the world moves forward, it will go the way the majority want it to and I'm happy to let the next generation decide what the world they live in is like. If others want to fight it, also fine.

I'm in my 50s. Looking back at what I believed when I was a teenager I now feel differently about all sorts of things, largely as a result of life experience. It took till my late 20s when my children came along for me to get an insight into some of the things my parents did, which up to that point I'd been very critical about. I was older than that before the penny finally dropped and I realised that the world is indeed a very sexist place. In my 20s I'd been (stupidly) of the opinion that all the big battles had been won and everything was great. It took being an older woman and a mother for me to see that I'd been very wrong.

I don't think this is unusual. We don't leave it to the younger generation to decide what goes on in the world. For one thing, what they decide would also affect the rest of us. For another, we restrict decisions like how to vote in elections or getting married or joining the army or buying alcohol to adults because it's understood that many adolescents are not mature enough to make sensible decisions.

If everyone is so "live and let live" why are women not permitted to "live and let live"? Why must women change absolutely everything, from the very definition of the word "women" to their sports teams to the words they're no longer allowed to use to discuss bodily issues they're no long allowed to mention (triggering, don't you know) -- like uterus and endometriosis, cervic and pap smear, breasts and breastfeeding?

Why, in this live and let live world, are women not allowed to engage in women-only activities without being told to die in a fire, barraged by men in balaclavas or being threatened with hanging (yes c.f. Baltimore LGBTQ.) Why are dykes harrassed and knocked to the ground in a dyke march by transactivists wielding pinkand-blue baseball bats? Why are dykes, in this live and let live world, not allowed to say they don't like dick? Why in this live and let live world is it not okay for women to have one, just one, rape shelter to themselves?

What you really are advocating for, in quite the supercilious tone, Sloth is a live-and-let-live world in which no one permits women to live and let live. No, women must OBEY. Males. That is who they must obey. There's nothing new or revolutionary there -- that demand is as old as the plow.

BickerinBrattle great post & you're right of course one of the strongest weapons against totalitarianism is humour.

Anyone who pays attention knows this and 'those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it'