I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Just as a warning, your thread may well be inundated by people haranguing you that "not all men..."

Anyway, I think your feelings are rational given what you've experienced. Of course the vast majority of women who feel this way don't show it in any noticeable way, just adjust their own actions/choices to avoid men where possible.

Yes, of course, NAMALT etc.

And I'm not sure that any man I've met would ever pick up on my feelings about them; being realistic, it's not in my interests for them to know, is it?

Well, quite!

I think it's totally normal to be put off by men showing behaviour that is similar to men who have hurt you before. It's reasonable to be cautious of men, irrespective of your own personal history.

I don't think it needs addressing unless you feel it's affecting you in ways you don't like, such as restricting what you do to where you choose to go.

I don't much appreciate the behavior of neuro typical people in general or the behavior of men. If certain groups tend to behave in an unhealthy way towards you, it's natural to avoid that social class.

I don't think it affects me more than the average woman - I don't walk around on my own late at night etc, but I generally just live my life.

Thanks for making me feel less like a weirdo!

I think I understand OP. I've been single for a few years after separating from my very difficult, manipulative ex. I was with him for a long time and really struggled to reconcile his behaviour with the apparently Mr Lovely I'd met. Before that I grew up with my dad who was abusive in lots of ways, and had a few other boyfriends. One of them was, I think, a genuinely nice man (though not right for me). Most really were not, though they could easily seem it.

The older I've got, the more I hear about what so many men are capable of in relationships, and generally, and the more I reflect on how much crap I took from my ex and how many women are going through similar, the more I really think "actually a LOT of men are awful". Not just a few. A lot, maybe most. That doesn't mean there aren't some lovely ones, and I have a DS who I hope will be a good guy (and who is being brought up as feminist as possible).

In theory I might like to date again, be in a relationship again... but the thought of dealing with any more horrible/entitled/misogynist/up themselves/potentially dangerous men to try to find a nice one is just so offputting. I feel like I've had it with them.

I often dearly wish I could find it in myself to consider a gay relationship, but it's just not there sadly.

Yes, that's it brink. Thank you.

I often dearly wish I could find it in myself to consider a gay relationship, but it's just not there sadly.

Alas I too can't change being heterosexual and have had similar thoughts.

Please bear in mind that even if you could make yourself feel attracted to a woman, if you misrepresent yourself as lesbian or even bi, that isn't very fair on the other woman.
Obviously women come out later in life all the time, it's quite common. But if you're really straight, please don't mess a woman around.
I sympathise with you re. men and don't want to derail but I had to mention that, and to note that a relationship with a woman isn't just "playing", "exploring" etc if the other person is taking it seriously.
I've seen it happen many times that a woman has a fling with another woman but doesn't even acknowledge that it happened after the fact.
Over and out.

As for work, I work in a female-dominated industry, in which the men rise to the top like bubbles in champagne. Time and time and time again I've encountered powerful men who are full of themselves, highly paid and essentially clueless about the actual matters in hand, lording it over the women I predominantly work with who are far, far better at what they do and much easier to work with. I'm a home-based contractor thank feck, so I don't have to endure these men on a daily basis but it makes me so furious.

Oh Flying, my apologies, no it's not like that at all. I would love to discover that I really am gay or bi and have the option of a relationship with a woman. But understand your concerns and I wouldn't "give it a try" or "explore" or experiment with it just out of curiosity or something. I have no desire to anyway.

I could not have put it better than BrinkPink's post.

Excellent.

I'm a photographer and occasionally go to workshops to learn specific new skills. It is amazing to me how often men assume that I'm an amateur who only takes photos of my cat, and seem really shocked when I tell them about some of my commissions etc!

The irony here is that the men making these assumptions are often - ahem - of a certain age, and have all the most expensive kit, but actually are amateurs!

They like to mansplain to me about what they perceive to be the more technical aspects of the job too. Gah!

I understand how you feel having had similar experiences, but I adore my dad and my brother and my two sons so I can't agree with your thread title.

I've just decided that a relationship isn't for me. I can't put that trust in someone again and leave myself vulnerable to be hurt.

As a side note, I don't think this board is the best place for this thread..it's not exactly a feminist issue and I don't think it's something that should be associated with being a feminist.. disliking all men because we know the kind of narrative that feeds

Oh and BTW I now see that my posting name might seem to be suggesting something. It's not at all, it's just a name for a particular shade of pink.

Yes ode, I was conscious of that particular narrative when debating about whether to post this here. I know feminists are all unfairly painted as "man-haters" but I think that there is a place for discussing our dislike of male behaviour, and we shouldn't feel that we have to censor ourselves because of misogynistic tropes aimed at feminists.

Oh gawd SandandSnow tell me about it.

I have years and years of experience in my field and I'm good at it, according to my clients not just myself! When I do work directly with a male client, I almost always get this attitude of trying to challenge me and trip me up, trying to prove why something I've contributed is wrong or they know better.

Every time this has happened so far, they didn't know better and I was able to politely beat them over the head (from a distance, via email) with a raft of authoritative sources and proofs. But god it's boring.

I think it's exactly a feminist issue, that's the centre of the whole thing. Any time any feminist speaks about men in any way that isn't glowing and subservient, people will be falling over themselves to shout about "man hating feminists". Of course they will. That shouldn't stop any woman from wanting to discuss their own experience on a feminist chat forum.

Everything in this thread resonates with me too.

I have a lovely DH, who is a feminist ally, my male boss is a feminist ally too. He’s great. My dad is a wonderful, kind man, but he gets his views from the Telegraph and when all the Bret Kavanaugh stuff was going on, he told me he though Dr. Blasey Ford was a Democrat stooge to set him up. It’s very disappointing but my dad is a typical privileged, white, ex public school man. He’s had 65 years to internalise all that insidious misogyny. Although I know for a fact that he thinks I’m clever and accomplished enough to build a rocket and go to the moon if I wanted to.

My brother is a great guy, but I have to pull him up all the time for treating my SIL with casual misogyny. Again, he doesn’t even realise it. When I point it out I can see the penny dropping. But it’s like a default.

My point is that even the men I love and adore (not my boss tho - ew) are not perfect. And to an outsider, they could well look like the misogynistic dinosaurs that, to be fair, they kind of are. I’m working on them though.

As I get older and understand more about male behaviour, male privilege, the patriarchy and all the ways it’s fucked me over, especially since I became a mother, I just cannot be arsed with men. Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse, these boards are rife with it. These men are not a minority. I’ve had relationships with them myself and witnessed friends go through the same. Men, as a class, are not nice, actually. The decent ones are the exception, not the rule it seems.

I was in a pay and display car park the other day and still had about an hour and a half left on my ticket as I was leaving. I saw a man at the pay and display machine and I was going to give him my ticket, but then I thought ‘he’s probably cheating on his wife or at least sexts people using a fake Tinder account or searches for ‘teen porn’ regularly’, so I didn’t give him my ticket! Perhaps unfair of me, but I bet I’m more likely to be right than wrong.

I'd probably make the same sort of calculation Twitter.

And I also feel like my tolerance for it all is much lower since becoming a mother.

I have unfortunately had experience of sexual coercion so while I can't quite relate, I do have some understanding of that feeling of being intensely uncomfortable around men. I have some amazing men in my life whom I would trust with my life and they prove all the time that they deserve that trust. All men aren't the same. I have plenty of women I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. Manspreading however should be punishable by castration.

I agree it's a feminist issue. Why are so many men so selfish, entitled and misogynist? - there may be various reasons, but I think a large part of it must be the inequality and embedded misogyny they've grown up with (as we all have). Feminism seeks equality and to change that imbalance – and if this is one of the results of it, it's something feminists should discuss.

A thing I find very difficult about men is that there is so much they could do to make things better for women-and, incidentally,other men- but they just don’t. It is, I’m afraid, a bit of a hobby horse of mine. We could make massive strides overnight if men wanted to.

I prefer the company of women as well. I can’t say I dislike all men but I am cautious around them after a childhood of being expose to a lot of Islamic men with really entitled/creepy/horrendous opinions. I know I am being unreasonable and I do warm to men after half an hour or so in their company but the first hit after meeting/coming into contact with a strange man can be quite uncomfortable. Again I do realise this is completely unreasonable and unfair.

What twitter said.

Sadly, my experience shows that most of the males I meet are not nice ones. Even the ones who are "nice" are usually only being nice to get something from the woman, whether that be sex, a home, an ego boost.

The stuff I read on these boards is heartbreaking.

For me the final thing which made me realise how desperate the whole situation is, was finding out that one of the men thought was okay - one of those men that are probably the type of man that women on here are thinking of when they talk about the decent ones - had been regularly visiting a prostitute. If he was capable of it, then any man is capable of it.