I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I'm blaming women for putting up with it.

Surely that's not a normal reaction though? To not give someone a car park ticket because he's likely to be a rapist, a serial cheater etc etc? What kind of society would we live in if we make everyone pay for the transgressions of others? I gave a woman £1 that she was short for her shopping but should I have thought "stuff that. My bank cards were stolen and used by a woman so this woman could be the same?

So what if it’s not your idea of normal? That’s how I felt in that moment and I’m relating it here. I’m not interested in your judgement.

Also, I would bet my house that if a woman stole your bank cards, it was because she was coerced in some way by a man to do it.

Does that view only apply to stealing bank cards or is all crime committed by women under the coercion of men?

"I'm blaming women for putting up with it." - yes, yes you are. At least you're being explicit about it.

What's your feeling about the men who take advantage of this and don't point out to their wives/partners that they don't want them to do this? Is it just (hu)man nature to take advantage?

I think too often women take over and run the household, see it as their domain, and then later moan when men don't do anything

I didn't do that, but I can see it could have looked like that. I didn't feel able to live in a total shitpit with endless piles of unwashed dishes, overflowing bin and stained toilet, and so I did the housework, just as I would if I lived alone. Not because housework was "my domain", but because I wanted it to be done so I could enjoy my home. (And I don't mean to some perfect showhome standard, just the basics.)

He quite simply... didn't. Unless I nagged and explained and had a feminist rant, and then he would agree with me, and do a bit... and then revert.

It is my fault that I didn't end it sooner - I naively thought he just was happy to live in a mess, but he wouldn't be like that about kids and their needs. I was wrong.

OP - I've started to feel the same way. My partner is kind but also has to asked to do most things. I feel safe with him though.
My dad was angry jealous and controlling. I went NC aged 18 (didn't call it that then). My son's dad was jealous, controlling and tight. I had to kick him out with police involved.
And my brother has been trying to intimidate me, shouting me down, and sending me abusive texts, then blaming it on stress and not apologising. And he says he's a Buddhist! Funnily enough asking him to wash his own dishes is a major trigger for an outburst of aggression

What I've learnt on here about the TRAs has been the nail in the coffin. The way men have been trampling all over women, at the same time saying they are women, is just so fucked up. The more I read about male abuse the more I dislike most men.

most of the men we see walking around are statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches.

I have been on MN for many years, and have enjoyed the feminist boards and the discussions/debate therein.

However, some of the posters on this thread are seriously weird and very offensive. The weird bit is the most worrying. It strikes me that they must be scarily weird about a whole host of other issues too.

Plus my partner is totally with me about the TRAs. He didn't need any persuading. And he's not homophobic.

What's your feeling about the men who take advantage of this and don't point out to their wives/partners that they don't want them to do this? Is it just (hu)man nature to take advantage?

The men who are genuinely taking advantage need to be kicked into touch. Seriously, I have no time for anyone who wants to be a freeloader, take advantage of others etc.

But I do know of women who treat their husbands like children. They criticise any attempt that the man makes to do anything - nothing is up to their high standards and if the man tries to do it they then go and re do it. Inevitably the man stops trying and then the woman complains that he doesn't help.

Conversely, I've seen it with my own parents. My dad has always handled the finances, paid the bills, done all of the admin because my mum claims to "not understand it all". Now there are times when she has to do something and she genuinely can't because she has no idea where to start. She moans that she can't do it and he moans that she won't do it but it's just a screwed up dynamic that they've both allowed to happen.

This is what I've seen happen with housework - the woman has discouraged the man from doing it and he's gone along with it. Then suddenly this stops working for one or the other.

I think we all need to be explicit about what we want - men and women.

most of the men we see walking around are statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches.

I stand by this. Most men will have done one or more of the above.

Most women have experienced some form of sexual harassment by men. Over 1 in 4 women report serious sexual assault/rape. Around 1 in 4 people report sexual abuse as children. Well over 50% of men admit to cheating in relationships. 1/3 of UK men have a criminal conviction by age 30, according to the home office. over 3/4 of men use porn (and most porn degrades women).

These are all stats I just checked at various official sources online - but knew already - just have a google.

I think what's weird is how we have normalised and accepted for so long, that men are like this, as a group. That they commit almost all violent crime. You see stats like that and you think "oh how weird and offensive that anyone could think that!" But I didn't make it up.

"Inevitably the man stops trying" - I mean, this is just pathetic, and treats men like useless characters who can't stand up for themselves and are pushed into being lazy shits by their overbearing wives! As if.

Well over 50% of men admit to cheating in relationships. 1/3 of UK men have a criminal conviction by age 30, according to the home office.

But between 30 and 60% of women admit to an affair (depending on what study you look at)

And the crime stats I could only find 30% of men up to age 53 years of age (as opposed to 30). This study reports 9% of women have criminal convictions, so whilst not as high as men I think it's a bit rich that you think it's ok to say that most of the men when statistically most of the women you see walking around have had an affair and/or have a criminal conviction.

I agree.

I have an amazing 20 year old son and I remind myself that he is living proof that NAMALT - but I'm also aware that I raised him! And that a great deal of men are exactly like that.

He is also a great feminist ally. And I hear him challenging the internalised misogyny in many of his female friends - they find him fascinating to talk to as a result.

I do have a couple of lovely male friends but with the majority of men i'm constantly batting off inappropriately sexual comments/advances (esp from married/attached me); challenging sexist assumptions/expectations/comments. And the ones who aren't sexually inappropriate or overtly sexist are only not revealing that side of themselves in front of me because I'm "a lady" and they apologise for swearing in front of me and otherwise treat me differently to the way they treat men.

And none of them include the men who have raped/attempted to rape/coerced sex from me. Nor the ones who've groped and grabbed me in pubs and on public transport. Nor the ones who've made overt and public rape threats towards me. Nor the ones who have just walked straight into me on the pavement when I didn't moved out of the way for them to pass. Nor the ones to guide me out of their way in a way in a crowded space in a way that they would never do to another man...

No, I don't like men very much either.

BrassBellsAndElephants
How does it make you feel that your son will be viewed as one of these men?

Do you not mind that he will be treated by a PP as statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches.

If the worst that happens is that some women avoid him without making it obvious, and don't give him a free parking ticket, I should imagine it isn't a worry. It certainly isn't a worry for me, for my two sons.

I'm not saying women are all perfect either.

This discussion arose from the poster who was reluctant to give a parking ticket to a man on reflecting that he'd probably be cheating on his wife, searching underage porn etc.

The point is that's true, it is likely any given man will be doing or have done one of those things or a range of other undesirable things. Not necessarily all of those things, and not all the time. An upstanding family man with a good job, might have harassed women at university or gone with a prostitute on a stag do, or currently be financially abusing his wife. The point is, look at any given man and at least one of these things is likely.

Does that view only apply to stealing bank cards or is all crime committed by women under the coercion of men?

Actually if you look at the UK female prison population, you can infer that most of he crimes committed are either a direct or indirect result of male coercion. It’s usually drugs offences as a result of having been put on heroin and then pimped out. Or benefit fraud as a result of having been financially fucked over or left high and dry by a man. Or shoplifting and theft because of financial abuse, by a man.

If the worst that happens is that some women avoid him without making it obvious, and don't give him a free parking ticket, I should imagine it isn't a worry. It certainly isn't a worry for me, for my two sons.

Really? I think that's sad that you don't mind that your sons will be viewed with suspicion and judged as definitely having committed a crime, cheated on their partner or searched under age porn and then be treated accordingly by 50% of the population.

It might not be something as innocuous as a parking ticket. What if he needed help and no one stopped?

Bloody good thread. I’ve been really struggling with this for the last 18 months especially. I’m finding the strength of my feelings about males pretty uncomfortable. Increasingly I’d just rather centre my life around building relationships with women (married happily to a mostly-ally man). Would love to live in a woman only world at times.

Or benefit fraud as a result of having been financially fucked over or left high and dry by a man. Or shoplifting and theft because of financial abuse, by a man.

So I was burgled and had my bank cards and car stolen by a woman (who got caught and is in prison) but I shouldn't hold her responsible because she might have been left high and dry by a man? Do me a favour. I didn't go out and commit crime as a result of this woman robbing me. There is such a thing as personal responsibility.

I'm sure they'll be fine. And you're making assumptions. No one here has said they wouldn't help someone hurt or in trouble.

I know a great many lovely men. The kind of men that WILL call a sexist idiot out. But I‘ e met too many of the other kind too. And even the lovely ones can be right lazy bastards sometimes. Men are responsible for so much that‘s wrong in this world, it’s depressing. If I ever broke up with my DP, I think I‘d just stay single.

I'm with you OP. As a group I see the same behaviour over and over again.

I think of men generally as takers. I think having children highlights this. There is no hiding that if there is one chance to go out/sleep / retain a hobby etc then men just seem to take it.

I would never think the biggest piece of all pies was mine to take, but most men do.

I have brothers and a father that I love. But I see it in them too. The wokest of my brother's is a spoilt misogynistic brat.

I went back to uni as an adult and I expected the younger men to be better. Nope. They were really aggressive to the women, rape was an acceptable 'joke'.

I actually think they are worse, will make rape jokes whilst lecturing you on sex work empowerment.

I am single and I have no inclination whatsoever of getting back into a relationship. I don't like the look of any relationship around me to be honest.

I love the company of women, especially older women. Men, meh.

I'm sure they'll be fine. And you're making assumptions. No one here has said they wouldn't help someone hurt or in trouble.

Do you really think that a woman would stop to help a man? I think some would. I think a lot wouldn't.