I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I can see your point-but why should she have to point it out to them? One of them at least is an adult. Who knows that meals have to be cooked and pots have to be washed. Who did he think was going to do it?

This is my issue with males, they are socialised to be so selfish and they are happy to remain selfish. I have yet to meet a male - I am glad others have - who isn't like this.

But also worrying is questioning her being "normal and rational" as a way to slap her down

If I were bursting into tears over a scenario in a dream which hadn't happened it is myself I'd be questioning - not putting it forward as evidence that all men or horrible.

Do you think that is normal and rational?

Yes

Ive had very vivid dreams that have upset me one way or another

pink

She woke up crying

She didnt say she woke up....and then cried

She started crying while dreaming

If I were bursting into tears over a scenario in a dream which hadn't happened

Oh... I often cry about distressing dreams!

I suppose that is irrational, but my point is we can't expect rationality of ourselves all the time. Or maybe you can Marguerita .

Men can be annoying, but the good news is you don't have to have sex with them or have a relationship with them. If you have to work them then you do need to be polite at times.

Bit in general for those that feel this way, don't try to have relationships with men. It is optional.

I've been with same male partner for 30 years. He is feminist ally, has never tried to change me or be anything other than supportive. BUT we don't have children (choice). I know quite a few women who ended their relationship once children came on the scene, as the men would just not pull their weight.
I can't be arsed with male company. There's my partner and another male friend (who I have known for over 30 years) who is partner with a female friend (who I met through him) who are not stereotypically male. But I really notice when I'm with my sister's male partner: constantly talking over me; using the phrase 'what you need to understand is...': never asking me about my work/life; his way of doing things is always the best yadda yadda.
Fortunately I work in a very female dominated field. I really notice when I do have to have meetings with men. Talking over women, thinking their hilarious...It's too exhausting and tedious dealing with them. Life is short. Don't spend it with people who expect you to pander to them. That's men.

But if you are a straight woman, you might want a nice relationship with a nice man. It's not that straightforward to just say "oh well then I won't bother" - I mean that is the conclusion I may be coming to, but it's sad as well.

Sad maybe, bit better for all involved I'd say.

Men can be annoying, but the good news is you don't have to have sex with them or have a relationship with them.

Sadly involuntary celebrate males and their allies have different opinions, it can be quite subtle encouragement to out right punishing, bullying and controlling women to service these males.

I experienced with this dynamic once, I turned the tables I perused the INCEL knowing he was using me, he ran as far as he could, he hadn't really been in love with me from a distance and a poor rejected thing as the others believed, he was using his poor performance with women and their rejection of him - to cover his true sexuality.

It is a feminist issue. Men are not shaping up. I blame the patriarchy.

Controversially, Jordan Peterson is quite good on this. His solution is hopeless, but he does recognise the problem of too many men being inadequate.

If you are reading this and feeling all sore because you are a man and you aren't inadequate, then feel free to decide I'm not talking about you because, after all, NAMALT.

However the current climate means men have to work really hard at resisting the insidious sexism of society. And few of them bother.

Of course it's irrational but yes I woke up in tears of frustration, I didn't wake up and then have a good old cry about my nasty dream-brother. I was not putting it forward as 'evidence that men are horrible' - more a reflection of how I'm feeling about men at the moment.

Men who don't like women are for sure more dangerous than women who don't like men. Neither have any business trying to get in a relationship with the opposite sex though I would say. If these men truly would leave women alone as they threaten then that would be good. By the same token though if you don't like men, then best avoid them where possible.

That would be bigoted though, Elon. We should surely continue treating each man as an individual until his character becomes clear. We can't go avoiding whole classes of people...

I grew up around boys and was on the receiving end of a lot of mean, rough and provoking behaviour. They were just normal boys but it taught me how horrid and careless boys can be.

I also grew up with a domineering and jealous father, given to scary outbursts of anger.

The other side of the coin is that the boys have grown up into very 'nice' men and my dad is a lot calmer and pleasant to be round now.

However, it coloured my feelings towards men - and no matter how old I get that hasn't gone away. Despite knowing lots of lovely blokes.

It means that at the heart of it I don't really trust men not to regress to that childhood pattern so common to many of them.

And I cannot tolerate them dominating, dictating and thinking that they are superior just because they have a dick.

Most men are not going to commit predatory or abusive crimes. But so many of them act in a way that women wouldn't.

One example of 'nice' man, behaviour, which must have happened to most of us in different scenarios: I was having lunch with some women friends and a guy was sitting on his own nearby. We lost count of the times he came over to have a little 'joke' with us, make a daft comment, come back and repeat it - you get the picture. Harmless but totally unwarranted.

Because we're women we were polite the first few times, but as he started to realise we weren't going to centre him in our lunch, and were finding his interruptions irritating, his comments got steadily more unpleasant. It soured what should have been a relaxing and enjoyable occasion.

He was probably just bored and wanted to chat but it sums up the sense of entitlement that so many men have towards women and think that it's okay to act on.

I just don't buy the "men don't see the mess, men have to be asked to do chores".

Somewhere along the line the men that do that have been allowed to think that it's ok to behave like that so who has facilitated it?

My husband isn't like this (in fact, hand on heart it's me who is like this over housework) because his mum was a single parent and worked and so he has always been expected to pull his weight. When we first lived together we figured out between us who wanted to do what - I like ironing but hate cooking so we divided tasks up accordingly.

Yes sometimes I might need to remind him to do something but then equally he has to remind me too.

I think we would all get away with not doing stuff if we knew that a)we could get away with it and b)someone else would pick up the slack.

You are not a feminist, just not a very nice person

Give a fuck. Lots of men aren’t very nice people either. Which is rather the point of this thread. ‘Nice’ is a bullshit standard that people only ever seem to impose on women. I don’t want to be ‘nice’. ‘Nice’ answers the phone even though the contact is unwanted. ‘Nice’ agrees to meet for a drink when it’s not really convenient to. ‘Nice’ answers the door even though they’ve been asked not to come round. ‘Nice’ let’s someone into the house ‘for coffee’ when it’s late and you just want to go to sleep.

Fuck nice.

Also, depends whose point of view you look at it from. From the car park’s point of view, I made them a bit of extra money. So they’d probably say I was ‘nice’.

Weetabixandshreddies the point was being made that "men don't see the mess" because they've been socialised not to worry about it, that a woman somewhere (Mum, wife, female relatives) will do it. It is as BaronessBomburst says, they have had sometime several decades of socialisation.

I mean, it used to be very explicit that this was the expectation, in the past. Now it's a more subtle social expectation, and it's not so explicitly stated as it would recognised and challenged immediately by most people. Many men haven't been socialised in this way these days, but clearly not enough.

So do you think can be done to make it clear to men and boys that they are expected to act like adults and do their fair share?

Surely that's not a normal reaction though? To not give someone a car park ticket because he's likely to be a rapist, a serial cheater etc etc?

What kind of society would we live in if we make everyone pay for the transgressions of others? I gave a woman £1 that she was short for her shopping but should I have thought "stuff that. My bank cards were stolen and used by a woman so this woman could be the same?"

I just don't buy the "men don't see the mess, men have to be asked to do chores".

I didn't mean it like that though - I HATE it when men are excused somehow because the poor loves don't see mess and can't do chores properly. I don't believe that at all.

What I said about my ex and I think applies to many men, was that he refused to pull his weight and would not do anything at all on his own initiative. That wasn't because he couldn't see mess and couldn't do chores - in fact he even used to boast about his cleaning skills, while never doing any (yes, he was that annoying). It was laziness, selfishness and knowing that if he just didn't bother, I'd do it, or I'd get cross and then he could play the victim because I was a nagging harridan, and I'd feel bad - win-win.

You're right, men who have been brought up to do their share and take the initiative can do it, of course they can.

Of course men see mess, they just don't see it AS THEIR JOB.

Weetabixandshreddies the point was being made that "men don't see the mess" because they've been socialised not to worry about it, that a woman somewhere (Mum, wife, female relatives) will do it. It is as BaronessBomburst says, they have had sometime several decades of socialisation

Who has done that socialisation then?

And I think that this is a stereotype. I don't think that men are like this. Many men have lived on their own and have to do this for themselves.

I think too often women take over and run the household, see it as their domain, and then later moan when men don't do anything.

The answer is that as mums we teach our sons and daughters to look after themselves, to take care of their homes, to do chores. We also don't allow men, or anyone else, to treat us like servants and nor do we expect to absolve ourselves of personal responsibility (like letting men handle the finances, or pay the bills so that we don't know how to do it (mum I'm looking at you!) or maintain the car or unblock the toilet or whatever tasks we don't like doing). Surely being in a relationship involves negotiating all of this and working out who does what?

BrinkPink

In that case there isn't much that you can do, only leave.

As parents we teach our children and demonstrate by example. You seem to have forgotten half of the equation.

And yes, I think I already said that NAMALT, but it is too many.

I think too often women take over and run the household, see it as their domain, and then later moan when men don't do anything

You seem to be blaming women for men’s crap behaviour.