I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Yes Bertrand. My ex could have played an equal role in our relationship, cut his hours so we could both work an equal amount, and done his share of childcare, housework and "wifework"/mental load. He chose not to - in spades. He helped himself to the max career advancement he could and point blank refused to pull his weight - thereby leaving me to handle everything so my work hours suffered. A dynamic that's played out in millions of families, helping to keep women down.

Now he smugly retweets feminists calling for equality in his field and bleats on about being pro-equality in his workplace - from his position of being at the top, highly paid and not doing much (and having oodles of spare time, as I'm the RP).

I was in a pay and display car park the other day and still had about an hour and a half left on my ticket as I was leaving. I saw a man at the pay and display machine and I was going to give him my ticket, but then I thought ‘he’s probably cheating on his wife or at least sexts people using a fake Tinder account or searches for ‘teen porn’ regularly’, so I didn’t give him my ticket! Perhaps unfair of me, but I bet I’m more likely to be right than wrong.

You are not a feminist, just not a very nice person.

Yes, I feel that too Bertrand. Even the "nice" ones don't seem to give enough of a shit about real equality to do anything about it. It's all just such an uphill battle.

Definitely a feminist issue. Plus, thinking we shouldn't discuss something because it's not a feminist issue is one thing, but thinking we shouldn't discuss something because it might make people (men) think we are not being adequately feminine is ALSO a feminist issue

I was in a pay and display car park the other day and still had about an hour and a half left on my ticket as I was leaving. I saw a man at the pay and display machine and I was going to give him my ticket, but then I thought ‘he’s probably cheating on his wife or at least sexts people using a fake Tinder account or searches for ‘teen porn’ regularly’, so I didn’t give him my ticket! Perhaps unfair of me, but I bet I’m more likely to be right than wrong.

Do what?

My point was nothing to do about not being feminine or pleasing men.. just that I don't relate feminism with disliking all men that's all. That statement is far too simplistic

IMO

Yes I think the "nice", often leftie liberal and "enlightened" men who just don't get it and don't understand their own sexism are a massive problem. They think they are nice, so if you challenge them, it's very easy for them to see you as an unreasonable moaning harpy, thereby reinforcing their sexism and blinkeredness.

I was once chatting to a friend's husband who is very "nice", enlightened and Mr Good Guy All Round. He was talking about some recent development from Saudi Arabia and bemoaning to me that "in some of these countries, you know, women are treated like second-class citizens!!!"

I pointed out that women are second-class citizens in the UK too. He looked at me like I had grown horns. I recounted a few examples like the DV rates, rape conviction rates, the number of women killed by partners and exes, and the persistent pay gap. He was quite cross and clearly offended that I should be so mean about men, and explained to me that women have equality in the UK now, legally. The implication was that therefore it must be women's fault if they don't take advantage of that.

I understand your post OP. I too have a lovely DH and a great male boss, a brother and brother-in-laws whose company I enjoy and a handful of men I speak to who are part of couple friends or dads that watch sport at the same time as I watch my DDs play. But, I increasingly find men's behaviour irritating and I think it is just that it is draining. I feel like I am still at school the way they dominate group conversations, butt into private conversations, have to show off. I'm not impressed and not interested. My time is precious. I am drawn to all-female activities and only interested in the kind of men who demonstrate that they think of women as human beings first (and these seem to be the minority)

I've just started a new sport - it's mixed and I'd have preferred it to be single sex - and I can already see the male bravado oozing out of the handful of males who attend.

Last night I cooked dinner whilst DS and DH sat in front of a roaring fire watching TV. After dinner they sat in front of the fire again reading while I cleaned up.
I was quietly seething. On both occasions if I'd have asked DH and DS to come and help they would have. But I don't want to ask. I would never leave one person in another room working; I go and help DH, SIL, DM whoever, but I realised it's totally normal for a man not to feel socially conditioned to automatically pitch in with domestic chores. They feel okay sittng there while someone else works. I've seen all the men in my and DH's families do it. Whereas as all the women feel guilty.
That fucking pisses me off.

At least this morning I had a chat with DS about it and he saw how unfair it was. I dont want him growing up thinking that's the norm.

I was in a pay and display car park the other day and still had about an hour and a half left on my ticket as I was leaving. I saw a man at the pay and display machine and I was going to give him my ticket, but then I thought ‘he’s probably cheating on his wife or at least sexts people using a fake Tinder account or searches for ‘teen porn’ regularly’, so I didn’t give him my ticket! Perhaps unfair of me, but I bet I’m more likely to be right than wrong.

I understand. Those things are quite likely, and most of the men we see walking around are statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches. Including the "nice" ones.

I feel similar and make an effort to help women over men where I can. Of course not all women are nice either but it goes towards redressing the overall economic imbalance if nothing else.

(Although it bit me on the arse when I employed a female plumbing firm recently for this reason. They were dismayingly pants!)

BaronessBomburst

I don't really understand this. Why not talk about it? Why don't you discuss it as a family and divide up the chores or, after you've cooked dinner, go and sit down and announce that you've done your bit and now it's down to them to clear up?

I don't get how it helps you to do it all whilst quietly seething? Like, that'll show them.

Weetabix, the point is though that Baroness would have to be the one to initiate that. Again.

The question is, why do so many men not see someone doing the washing up and get up to help? Or just do the washing up without a discussion? Like women do all the time?

“I don't get how it helps you to do it all whilst quietly seething? Like, that'll show them.”
I can see your point-but why should she have to point it out to them? One of them at least is an adult. Who knows that meals have to be cooked and pots have to be washed. Who did he think was going to do it?

the point is though that Baroness would have to be the one to initiate that. Again

Presumably this is a pattern which happened early on - possibly by Baroness taking on those roles.

It is utterly absurd to play the seething martyr and do or say nothing about it.

I feel like a misandrist a lot of the time and I don't know what to do about it. It doesn't feel fair on my DP when my opinions spill out sometimes... he's genuinely very good. I just have such a poor opinion of men, and dads... I feel I am far more forgiving and understanding of women. I don't take it personally if they bump me on the street. Perhaps because it's not symbolic of them taking up space I could be entitled to in every other area of life.

Part of the problem, for me, is that men seem to have much lower standards for themselves in the way they treat others. They seem to have a lot more entitlement to put themselves first even if that disadvantages their dependants. I've seen so many women fucked over and abused by the men they were trying to support.

I was pondering on my misandry last night and then this morning woke up crying from a dream that my lovely brother had cheated on his lovely girlfriend and got OW pregnant. It took a few minutes for me to not feel furious and devastated at him. Thinking of my brother is often my own reassurance that men can't all be awful. I think my subconscious wanted to tarnish that too.

I live happily with my female partner of 20 years. I'm gender critical and one of the millions of 'me too' women.

I don't hate men and count excellent men amongst my friends and former colleagues (some of the latter remain friends).

I hate all the woke lot, male or female, however. They're selling me down the river.

I was in a pay and display car park the other day and still had about an hour and a half left on my ticket as I was leaving. I saw a man at the pay and display machine and I was going to give him my ticket, but then I thought ‘he’s probably cheating on his wife or at least sexts people using a fake Tinder account or searches for ‘teen porn’ regularly’, so I didn’t give him my ticket! Perhaps unfair of me, but I bet I’m more likely to be right than wrong.

You are not a feminist, just not a very nice person

And you sound a bit deranged.

Well this was the story of my relationship, and I never did find a solution to it.

• Thing needs doing (dishes, pay bill, book holiday, organise child's party, whatever)

• Chance of him doing it off his own bat - zero.

• So I can:

a) do it without a fuss, and be blamed for being a martyr

b) remind him and try to set up a system where we share chores equally, then nag him when he doesn't do his bit.... and get to be both left with responsibility for sorting everything, and be a nagging cow.

c) get fed up and leave him. Which I did - but I'm still the RP and have to do almost all the gruntwork, metal load regarding the DC etc. Which I prefer, because neither they nor I would prefer 50:50, because he not very nice!

What exactly can you do?

I've been online too long and had too many I requested dick pics sent to me to believe that good men are in the majority.

I do know a few genuinely good men, but I can't be bothered with relationships and dealing with someone else's emotional baggage anymore.

I was pondering on my misandry last night and then this morning woke up crying from a dream that my lovely brother had cheated on his lovely girlfriend and got OW pregnant. It took a few minutes for me to not feel furious and devastated at him

Do you think that is normal and rational?

I think the dream comes from the OP feeling that sense of distress and despair about the state of male behaviour in general, and also feeling bad about feeling that. It's weighing on her mind and that's when dreams like this can result.

It's normal. But dreams aren't rational.

But also worrying is questioning her being "normal and rational" as a way to slap her down.

*unrequested dick pics

Sorry, I meant mansneverhot and not OP.

We will have a conversation about it. And DH will apologise and clean up tonight. But my point is that I have to point it out to him.he genuinely will not have noticed. He's been socialised for 50 years not to see it because it's wifework. I get sick of pointing it out. It's like, me against society. I pull him one way, it pulls him back with all the little 'hidden' influences. Gender roles in adverts etc.