I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Weetabixandshreddies one person described the parking ticket situation, I haven't seen anyone else say they'd do likewise. Might have missed it, but I don't think it's the majority.
Where I live you've got to put the licence plate number in, so you can't give the ticket away anyway.

I think the fact that they don't means they can't be suffering too much from women assuming the worst about them.

I think that decent men do try and do something about this.

I'm not sure how far men can get on their own though.

FlyingOink

There were a few agreeing with the post.

Pretty far I reckon, would be good to find out...

Alas I too can't change being heterosexual and have had similar thoughts.

Me too.

AssassinatedBeauty

I don't know. Honestly I think it will take everyone pulling together. Yes, important men in the child's life but also mums, teachers (who tend to be women in primary schools) but everyone that the child interacts with has a part to play.

Even attitudes like "women commit crimes because they are victims of men" damage young men growing up. Boys growing up in dysfunctional families are at risk yet what do we do about that?

“Many of you would stop to help a man, which possibly could incur a risk, but wouldn't give a man a parking ticket because statistically he could have done all of those things listed above?

Is that not curious?”
Nope. Giving a parking ticket to a woman not a man is a harmless little private yah boo sucks to put a spring in your step. If someone is actually bleeding it’s a completely different ball game.

“Honestly I think it will take everyone pulling together.”

Right. So how do we get men’s hands on that rope? Women’s hands are there already.

And if anyone suggests that women need to ask more nicely I might have to scream.

Yet another thread turned into a pity party for the poor men. Jesus are you all for real? While you are all on here worrying about the man in the car park, or the hypothetical hurt man in the street, actual men are out there killing their partners, raping women, beating up other men for being too much like women... They HATE us. And all we do is worry for them.

OP I hear you. I have been groomed, raped, assaulted, emotionally, physically, sexually and financially abused within relationships. I have been groped in public, heckled you name it.

All of that I have come to terms with. It is the every day misogyny that cuts the deepest for me now. The fact my husband has to be asked to act like a normal human being rather than my third child. The assumptions and stereotypes and the jokes that are constantly all around us in the media, on TV, in the workplace. It is endless and it is overwhelming.

I have no time for it at all. I have no time for men encroaching on my space in public or at home. I have no time for being patronised by men who haven't a clue what I know or am capable of. And for so long I held on to NAMALT. I clung to it, because when I was younger I enjoyed the platonic company of men so much more than that of women. I didn't want to tar them all. But it piles up and for me I am way past the tipping point now. NAMALT but enough are that I can't ignore it anymore. Men are a problem.

I can't say that I'm fed up of men because when I reverse the situation, that turns me into the female equivalent of an MRA. There are boards out there that are full of MRAs and MGTOWs who rant about hating women and when they talk about why they hate women, it's always stereotypes like 'women stop men from seeing their children', 'women cry rape', 'women are gold-diggers' etc. So when it comes to saying, 'I've had it with men', I can't bring myself to agree because that just brings us down to the level of MRAs.

I have certainly had it with toxic masculinity, however, and I have had it with the patriarchal society we live in which tells men that the worst thing that can happen to them is to be 'beaten by a girl' or to have a woman laugh at them because it wounds their oh-so-important male pride.

Patriarchy is what causes the social conditions that creates toxic male behaviour and, yes, technically men created patriarchy to control women and wield power but men are as much a victim of the patriarchy as women are. Most men just don't see it that way.

You can't have any coherent feminism without a discussion of masculinity and what it means to be male but there are still too many men out there who are wedded to toxic ideas of masculinity and who don't want to change. Trump is a classic example of that, clinging to some 1970s idea of manliness but clearly it resonates with some people out there, even women.

Yet another thread turned into a pity party for the poor men. Jesus are you all for real? While you are all on here worrying about the man in the car park, or the hypothetical hurt man in the street, actual men are out there killing their partners, raping women, beating up other men for being too much like women... They HATE us. And all we do is worry for them

So, so well said. Yes. Bravo.

Giving a parking ticket to a woman not a man is a harmless little private yah boo sucks to put a spring in your step.

Really?

@sheepsheep it's most definitely not "all of us on here", just the odd one.

I’m a man and many of you sound hacked off and some even traumatised. Whilst I might usually be tempted to say namalt I think you should do you.

Give yourselves time and space to heal, and maybe only let the nice ones close next time.

Excellent thread @SandAndSnow thank you. I've felt like this for so long and more so in the past year but have thought myself unreasonable.
Reading this thread has made me realise that I don't know ANY truly decent men. None.
I have a 4 year old ds and I feel immense pressure to raise him right, to defy the misogynistic culture we live it, to respect women and not do all that male shit we see so often.
Maybe my grandad would be one of the nice ones. I don't remember hearing anything said by him that would count as misogynistic.
All the other men in my family though? Rampant. My brother forced me to change out of a short skirt age 13/14 before taking to a party because "it's no wonder women get raped." Army guy, 14 years older than me. My other brother is possibly worse. Brother in law a sexist prat. Dad was an alcoholic and my mum codependent. He'd fly into the most terrifying rages over nothing and did a lot of damage. He's been dead a few years now. Ex husband abusive in every way possible. Ex boyfriends all abusive in some way. Ex best mate revealed as not only sexist but two faced and xenophobic. As a child and teenager I gravitated towards male friends and gent more at ease with them. Adulthood, and MN, has made me realise that I like men but I have no trust in them at all. As such I've vowed to stay single.

@BrinkPink you put all my thoughts and feelings into words.

For me, the point about the (hypothetical) man and parking ticket (I don't drive), is not whether or not he would ever notice, but about me. So, does my female socialisation mean that I have just been very well trained to feel it is my job to be 'helpful' to everyone? Would a man feel the same? What does it feel like for me to consciously prioritize females over males? It's like the thing about deciding to not step aside for men on the pavement, and see what happens (not recommended if you can't put up with getting barged and grumped at!). It's not about being nice or not nice to men to see if that helps (after all, we've tried the being nice to men in the hope they improve thing for many many years), it's about us not them.

And frankly, seems as radical a thing to do now as it was when I was a fresh-faced little feminist!

"maybe only let the nice ones close next time." - are you aware it's often not possible to identify which men are "nice" until they are already close. That's kind of the point being made here.

I’m a man and many of you sound hacked off and some even traumatised. Whilst I might usually be tempted to say namalt I think you should do you.

Give yourselves time and space to heal, and maybe only let the nice ones close next time.

How nice of you to give us permission to be ourselves.

And for so long I held on to NAMALT.
Me too. Thought I had a good guy, but it came to light over the past few years exactly how much of a cheating, lying, selfish, porn addicted, casually misogynistic guy he actually was. He hid it well. Or I was conditioned well to accept it. Probably both. Most disappointing realisation of my life to find out he's just another stereotypical toxic man. And if he turned out like that, it seems to me that every man must be somewhat the same. He's shown me that even the good guys are bad. They just hide it better.

I haven’t read the threat though I am going to go back and do so.

I don’t think I’ve had as bad experiences as you OP but I am much happier in the company of women. I like men in particular, but not in general, and I don’t find them natural company. I don’t have any friends who are men (only joint friends who are really my husband’s friends).

I went to all girls schools and grew up without brothers and wonder if this is part of it, but I’ve never felt really comfortable in the company of men. I am unapologetic about my intelligence and I am not very attractive and I think many men just therefore don’t particularly bother with me - I don’t then particularly bother with them in return, so perhaps that’s why their company never feels as interesting as my female friends’?

It’s not so much about trust as the fact that I have always felt I was only skating over the surface with men in conversation or else it was flirting. There are a few exceptions but only men I got to know well through boyfriends and my husband and therefore got past this initial stage. However I remember at university, aged 19, hearing two of my nice male classmates talking about women and realising that under their late 20th Century veneer they would trample all over our rights if they could - that even the ‘nice’ ones were like this - and that has stayed with me ever since. So I don’t feel like I’m on the same ‘side’ as men.

thread not threat - sorry

I must admit I would be wary helping men on the street. Injured, yes, but just looking helpless no.

Especially after that poor woman was raped by a homeless man who was crying before she tried to help him

You couldn't make it up actually. Like he is trying to be nice....that is not lost on me...but he can't do it without an air of authority and a little dose of victim blaming for good measure.

Of course you are right Assassinated there is always some element of trust involved and hence risk, but one can excercise discernment and good judgement nevertheless.

Although some have posted here about having godawful abusive fathers and then go on to be attracted to men who perpetuate that abuse, and I mean this kindly as this is in no way these individual women’s fault, but perhaps taking some space away from men and fostering realisations that no-one deserves to be treated this way can only be a good thing.