I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

Scienceis, thanks for that image, the fusion of paedophilia and MtF transgenderism is something that needs to be massively decoupled before I feel the need to start responding to ChakiraChaka's request that we (women!!) have to sort out how to make it easier for trans people to pee wherever they like.

Given the infiltration of paedophiles and paedophile apologists in the current TRA movement, I would have thought there is even less reason to be supportive of their desire to access women's toilets where young children are often also present.

Woman being hysterical=women taking necessary precautions to the disadvantage of the accused.

Even when it’s so gleefully waving its trunk.

Oh, that is just so good.

Not on reconfiguring the toilets - especially when there's evidence that some people won't use mixed sex facilities anyway as it doesn't validate their identity.

recent Telegraph article: 'Transgender students win apology after being told to use 'gender neutral' toilets instead of the men's'
(extract)
"A university was forced to apologise to transgender students after they were told to use the “gender neutral” toilets instead of the men’s.

Two Masters students at Canterbury Christ Church University (CCCU) were confronted by a security guard after using the men’s toilets at the student union building on campus.

Toby George, 21, who is studying Criminal Justice and is Tilbert Wilson, 24, who is taking Early Childhood Studies, are both biologically women but identify as men.

After the pair emerged from the men's toilets, the security guard asked them to present their identification cards. They were also asked why they had not used the “gender neutral” toilets in the building next door.

“The security guard said the gender neutral toilets are available. I said ‘Well, I don’t identify as gender neutral, I identify as a man’,” said Toby George, who is the student union’s LGBTQ+ officer and a trainee special constable." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/12/21/transgender-students-win-apology-told-use-gender-neutral-toilets/
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3469768-Transmen-confronted-by-security-guards-at-mens-toilet

The text on that image above is utterly, utterly repellent.
#compassionfail

Given the infiltration of paedophiles and paedophile apologists in the current TRA movement, I would have thought there is even less reason to be supportive of their desire to access women's toilets where young children are often also present.

current thread and important article:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3474574-La-Scapigliata-Safeguarding-article-What-is-wrong-with-child-sex-dolls-and-why-P-should-not-be-a-part-of-LGBT

Thanks for all your tireless work pointing us in the direction of other relevant threads R0wantrees

I was offering another option of how to respond to the situation of a male-bodied person in the ladies toilets.

Thanks but "male-bodied person shouldn't be in female toilets" suits me just fine

Yes R0wan thank you!

There's a massive amount of wisdom, insight and information on previous threads. I learned so much from wise women here.
Happy to do what I can to help others find it

I'd want to do that survey to find out what people in general actually thought made sense, not necessarily to implement a particular choice.

As a side note (but stemming from comments on this thread) do you think it can be dangerous this automatic belief that all woman are ‘safe’? for example, the parents letting girls use toilets alone because it’ll only be woman in there. Not just because a transwoman may be dangerous, but do you think there should maybe be a bit more education on ‘stranger danger’ as a whole as opposed to just ‘Male gender’ any stranger can be a risk, Male, female, trans... obviously statistically a man is most likely to do something but it’s made me curious as to if placing huge emphasis on woman only spaces being completely ‘safe’ could be dangerous in itself.

I have less and less faith in surveys.

There are many options how to respond to a male-bodied person in a female only space. A few years ago I (and many of us here) may have responded with an outward smile and showing compassion, perhaps with inward discomfort, but ultimately budging over in the interests of being nice and kind.
That option is becoming less appealing to women, precisely because of TRA action to force acquiescence from women, rather than request a workable solution for all.

@R0wantrees
To deal with the male students' bullying behaviour and to challenge the sexist male atitudes.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.

@langcleg

How about telling men to budge up and welcome their non-conforming brethren? It's not even occurred to you to suggest that, has it? You should reflect on why it hasn't.

You'll see I hadn't suggested anything. This subject is new to me, I haven't got my head around it yet, but it's important to me to try to understand everybody's point of view while I'm making my own mind up. It's come to my attention that this subject is debated on MN a fair bit, so my question was of genuine curiosity.

@Datun
I can see you are maybe new to this debate?

Here's how this conversation would go, a quick précis.

You suggest they are bullied in the men's toilets. Firstly there is no evidence for it, but the question would be by whom? You would say men. And the assumption would be because course men are violent, right? And they're going to beat up a bloke in a dress.

And yet that logic, that men are violent, disappears when it's women who are going to be subjected to men in their toilets.

Women have to suck it up.

Do you see the inherent sexism there?

And the assumption that it is women who will suck it up, by calling it compassion, is even more sexist.

Yes I am new to the debate and its important to me to try to understand all sides of it. I consider myself a feminist, and I've become aware that in order to continue to be able to call myself one I can't let this subject carry on going over my head. I also teach a group of young people similar in age to the 19 year old, and a number of them have come out as trans, so I've got a personal connection reason to want to do right by them, (the whole group of young people), too. Luckily, we have single cubicle unisex loos, so I don't have to personally decide on a loo policy 😉

Thank you very much for being patient with me and giving me the quick précis, that's genuinely useful.

So what would you have this person do, that made it okay for everybody?

How about telling men to budge up and welcome their non-conforming brethren? It's not even occurred to you to suggest that, has it? You should reflect on why it hasn't.

Langcleg nails it. Still wondering if posters who think we're all "hysterical" can provide an answer ... > sits down comfortably and prepares to wait for a loooong time

As a side note (but stemming from comments on this thread) do you think it can be dangerous this automatic belief that all woman are ‘safe’? for example, the parents letting girls use toilets alone because it’ll only be woman in there.

Really, you want to cite the responsibility with the father who waited outside whilst his daughter used the women's loo in a supermarket?

If you read the article & discussion you might be asking how a young dangerous male (who had social care involvement from a very young age) might have come to believe that he should/could use the women's toilets.

Chakira welcome! It’s a complex issue for sure. I hope you stay now you’ve found us, and perhaps contribute your view, especially if you are involved with gender questioning young people.
There is a thread called ‘break it down for me’ which is a good place to start - I have learned so much here.

No worries ChakiraChakra.

If you're genuinely interested, and intend to read more, it will change you. I guarantee.

It's not so much about men with gender dysphoria, it's about the misogyny that the ideology attracts. It's depressing and it will permeate a lot of your thinking.

but do you think there should maybe be a bit more education on ‘stranger danger’ as a whole as opposed to just ‘Male gender’ any stranger can be a risk, Male, female, trans... obviously statistically a man is most likely to do something but it’s made me curious as to if placing huge emphasis on woman only spaces being completely ‘safe’ could be dangerous in itself

Safeguarding and Child Protection frameworks are failing / have failed in many ways. Loopholes will always be exploited by those intent on abuse. Safeguarding is about identifying risk and seeking to prevent it through a range of measures including policy and legislation.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

ChakiraChakra

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

^ this is the thread that does a lot of explaining. However, be aware it is now slightly out of date. Certain terms have been banned on here. The word terf, as it's a slur, cis as unnecessary and an insult, TIM as in trans identifying man, on the grounds that it upsets transwomen.

You also can't misgender.

Yeps I found it changed me for ever being on theses board
💪

Think about that bloke, sorry I mean 'm'am' who was caught on video in that game shop in Canada before christmas. Think about how he reacted to someone not falling at his feet and validating him.

And then think about why women are apparently so 'fine' with transwomen being in the ladies toilets.

if placing huge emphasis on woman only spaces being completely ‘safe’ could be dangerous in itself

So too the suggestion that girls and women can't use single sex spaces.

The solution is to stand up for safeguards and protect single sex spaces.

This person beer.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=_ZtOz-KKMhI

I've posted it upthread, but it does absolutely demonstrate what happens when a woman challenges.

The tw has also said, on Facebook, that they would 100% react in the same way again.