I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

Early if what you mean is, should we now consider women’s spaces may now be mixed sex, and we can no longer assume they are female only (female only being statistically safer) then sadly yes. We may have to assume women’s spaces are no safer than any other.
But I’m not sure if that is what you were getting at?

sorry I mean 'm'am' who was caught on video in that game shop in Canada before christmas. Think about how he reacted to someone not falling at his feet and validating him.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3462561-Weve-all-seen-this-video-right

Really, you want to cite the responsibility with the father who waited outside whilst his daughter used the women's loo in a supermarket?

No, obviously it’s not his fault, you’ve clearly missed the point. But it scares the shit out of me and I don’t think this obsession with woman’s spaces = everyone’s safe is actually very healthy.
I was watching a documentary on rose west the other day, they got access to so many vulrenable girls much easier because she was a woman and we’re taught to believe woman are safe.
Obviously it’s not the woman who she attacked fault this happened, it’s hers and hers alone... same with the supermarket trans person, but what I’m saying is feminists are really pushing this ‘woman are safe’ stance and I’m wondering if it’s a good message to keep sending.

ChakiraChakira glad you're here You will find so many posters (quite a few on this exact thread actually!) who know their stuff and provide lots of evidence of how nasty this debate has become towards GC women and frame it in such a way to help you me! be able to articulate thoughts fears to others. Last October especially when the deadline for the GRA consultation was looming if was this batshit crazy place that gave me the confidence to do it in real life.

The downside as others have alluded to is the reality is often very, very depressing

@GCSocScientist

before I feel the need to start responding to ChakiraChaka's request that we (women!!) have to sort out how to make it easier for trans people to pee wherever they like.

Hang on, I didn't say that. I didn't imply that trans people should be able to pee wherever they like - what I do expect, is that trans people, like all other people, should have somewhere safe to pee. My question wasn't intended to be loaded (and sorry if it came across that way) , it was with genuine curiosity because I figured that a group of people who seem to be saying strongly "not this" might have a "that instead" answer to the problem... which it turns out, they have! One that I'm grateful to have been helped to understand a bit better now.

Bloody hell that video! Last week whilst out with no make up and a track suit on someone actually referred to me as a young man. Now being 40+ whilst I'll take the "young" part I was a bit at the man bit but appreciated at best my face was a bit boiled egg like so what the heck he had a 50/50 chance at getting it right.

It would have absolutely never have occurred to me to react like that. It looked like that TW was going to hit someone!

Ok Early I had misunderstood you in my earlier post.
Women are statistically much less likely to be a danger. RW was one of very very few women who have committed this type of crime. Still awful, not unique, but in terms of numbers, a relatively small risk to society. Compared to men who, worryingly, are a massively higher risk re committing violent and sex based crimes.
Hence sex segregation.

@Datun and @humberella (just got the username now I've typed it! 😁) thanks for the welcome. Seems like I need a LOT of time to sit down and read a lot!

I hope you stay now you’ve found us, and perhaps contribute your view

I probably will in due course. Until fairly recently I thought the toilets debate was a massive unnecessary thing, and that of course trans people could pee in the bathroom of their chosen gender. Having hung around MN a little now, and learnt of such things like the TRA movement and Autogynephaellia (or, y'know, however it's actually spelt!) I'm not at all feeling confident that I know enough on the subject to have developed an opinion yet.

Women, on the very odd occasion they commit sexually violent crime is a completely separate issue to opening up women's spaces to men.

Men commit 98% of sexually violent crime. Statistically you're going to be far worse off if you are in a mixed space.

90% of all offences happened in a mixed sex changing room according to the survey. Was it the Guardian? I can't remember.

So early, I don't think anyone is suggesting that all women are hundred percent safe. Because it's not true. It's about being statistically safer.

but what I’m saying is feminists are really pushing this ‘woman are safe’ stance and I’m wondering if it’s a good message to keep sending.

The problem is that often 'nowhere is 100% safe' is used as an excuse to remove all safeguarding. Just because some women sexual abuse and some men will ignore single sex spaces, isn't reason to dismantle all sex segregation. It's very much needed and wanted by women and girls.

This subject is new to me

Sorry! We're used to constant brigading around here, so my patience is thin (also am a gobshite).

Wasn't it in New Mexico, USA, not Canada?

The fact that Rose West is always fucking invoked (along with Myra Hindley) when talking about 'women do it too you know' shows how little women do it too!

I'm not minimising what happened to West's victims, but...FFS.

And even with those two 'women do it too you know' favourites, there was a man heavily involved.

90% of all offences happened in a mixed sex changing room according to the survey. Was it the Guardian? I can't remember.

Sunday Times & then Independent, Daily Mail.
I haven't seen a Guardian article.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6124077/Ninety-cent-sexual-assaults-public-swimming-pools-happen-unisex-changing-rooms.html

The impact on a woman who has been assaulted in the past having to consider using shared changing rooms now :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3360528-using-mixed-changing-facilities-after-assault

The problem is that often 'nowhere is 100% safe' is used as an excuse to remove all safeguarding.

Exactly. I really don't get the 'occasionally women are dangerous too, so let's just let anyone in anywhere shall we' argument at all.

Sorry about that ChakiraChakra, I misunderstood you.
I though it was a request for women to clear up the Trans mess, again, even though we are its main victims...
We have so many fronts to be fighting on, I get a bit grumpy when presented with more work to do.
Welcome, though, I also had a v steep learning curve when I hit the feminist threads, I meandered here one day where there was nothing of interest on style and beauty.. :-D

No, obviously it’s not his fault, you’ve clearly missed the point. But it scares the shit out of me and I don’t think this obsession with woman’s spaces = everyone’s safe is actually very healthy

I asked if you were putting the responsibility with the father. That is different.
What "obsession" with woman's spaces= everyone's safe? Who has ever said that let alone been obsessed with it?

I dont think anyone with a familiarity of Child Protection and Safeguarding would ever expect or claim it was possible for 'every one to be safe', hence why its about identifying and seeking to minimise risk.

As for "clearly missing the point" well... perhaps that's a more a self description?

I’m not against sex segregation (although would definitely welcome more unisex provisions)
I just mean this message that keeps being sent that woman’s spaces are safe, but are not safe if men/transwoman are there, gives children the illusion that if they are around woman they are safe.
A transwoman who has bad intentions can make a woman’s space unsafe, so can a woman who has bad intentions.
I think the main issue is down to how a transwoman using the facilities would make a woman feel, which is perfectly valid. Obviously we should not just accept that woman may feel uncomfortable with no questions asked but then as it does regularly come down to ‘so what if a transwoman feels uncomfortable in the mens’ is there not an element of ‘my feelings matter more’ underneath it all?

Whose feelings early.?
I don’t understand

early

Safety and feelings do not carry equal weight.

Discomfort because a member of the cohort who regularly beat, rape and kill women is demanding to stand next to you when you're vulnerable is a very valid feeling. A man wanting validation because he's wearing a frock, not so much.

And no one, except you, is saying that women's spaces are always safe. Just safer.

Obviously it’s not the woman who she attacked fault this happened, it’s hers and hers alone... same with the supermarket trans person

The salient factor is that the perpetrator was male not their current gender identity.
The offence was male-pattern assault and abuse.
Of two girls aged 10 and 12 years old.

Read the article and see what was done to them.

early, what is it you are actually trying to say?

You know that statistically women are safer with sex segregation. You also know that it's just a statistical safety, not an absolute.

So what are you trying to say?

It looked like that TW was going to hit someone!

It's not that uncommon:

It’s a discussion datun I’m discussing things. I know that’s not really welcome here unless you’re part of the echo chamber and shouting down transwoman but when pondering issues relating to the subject I thought some of you would atleast engage without getting on the defensive.

I am discussing if it’s helpful to constantly class woman’s spaces as safe unless there’s a man there, or if this might be sending the wrong message to children.

I’m pondering if it comes down to ‘the woman being uncomfortable’ vs ‘the transwoman being uncomfortable’ if it just comes down to who’s feelings are more important.

The level of fear is palpable in that studio. They did not even say the truth. And are utterly shocked that Shapiro does.

It's just about the most accurate portrayal of an Emperor's new clothes scenario, that I can think of.