I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

Out of interest, and assuming the toilets in this person's college are labeled male, or female, where do you folk expect this person to pee?

I can only imagine that a 19 year old who is changing their outward appearance from male to female, would be a lot more at risk of bullying in a male toilet than a female one.

I do get and understand concern that this person's rights don't trump the rights of the women using those loos. I just wonder what MNers would suggest as a solution for this person.

I can only imagine that a 19 year old who is changing their outward appearance from male to female, would be a lot more at risk of bullying in a male toilet than a female one.

But this is all to do with expecting women to be nice and put up with things, isn't it? Men won't and so women's behaviour has to change, not men's.

dogz how about that male-bodied person having compassion for all the women and girls in the world and not using the women's facilities? How about him campaigning for unisex facilities? Obviously, that would mean he wouldn't get the validation he wants, but that's not any woman or girl's problem or fault.

It’s men that have to change not us
And why we have to do the budging up

I don't think anyone on this thread has actually read my posts properly - you've just jumped to conclusions about who I am and what I'm saying.

"I can now see that the tone of the board is clearly anti-trans, so I'll leave."

"It doesn't always have to be hysterical and calling security."

No, you've been heard, have you listened?

But this is all to do with expecting women to be nice and put up with things, isn't it? Men won't and so women's behaviour has to change, not men's

Perhaps it is, thank you, I hadn't seen it like that.

So what would you have this person do, that made it okay for everybody? (Let's assume that currently, they are getting bullied when they use the male toilet).

I can only imagine that a 19 year old who is changing their outward appearance from male to female, would be a lot more at risk of bullying in a male toilet than a female one.

I do get and understand concern that this person's rights don't trump the rights of the women using those loos. I just wonder what MNers would suggest as a solution for this person.

To deal with the male students' bullying behaviour and to challenge the sexist male atitudes.

The solution is that the college (and the rest of society) crack down heavily on bullying and intimidation of anyone who is doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes. Men who bully other males, however they choose to look, feel, or identify, should be called out and the appropriate disciplinary action applied by the institution.
And sex segregation continues to apply for the dignity and safety of everyone.

& re above, I am obviously not suggesting that the individual male person has sole responsibility for this. That is where the focus should be though.... dealing with the male issues.

ChakiraChakra Why should it be up to women to create a solution for men who what to identify as women? Do you not think women have enough shit to deal with? Why can’t the trans community create a third space and leave us alone? Why are women constantly being told that they have to be nice and let trans people, AGPs, cross dressers, fetishists, etc into female spaces? They are spaces created for the protection, dignity and privacy of the female SEX!

It doesn't always have to be hysterical

Interesting that you use that word.

So what would you have this person do, that made it okay for everybody?

Why do women and girls have to "make it ok for everybody?" I think most of us are already quite busy.

If I have to clarify further - I was offering another option of how to respond to the situation of a male-bodied person in the ladies toilets. It doesn't always have to be hysterical and calling security.

It's not hysteria to be deeply concerned about a man who ignores your boundaries by striding into the female toilets. And gets super excited about it.

Women questioning men, who have already ignored their consent, tend not to be very well received by said men.

Women don't go around confidently challenging men who demonstrate red flags. Most women know that it is the quickest route to generating aggression.

So what would you have this person do, that made it okay for everybody?

How about telling men to budge up and welcome their non-conforming brethren? It's not even occurred to you to suggest that, has it? You should reflect on why it hasn't.

So if women are not showing immediate compassion we are accused of being hysterical?
That’s a pretty limited range of responses available.

Now that I've read the thread I see I'm not the only one uncomfortable with that term. It reminds me of Stefonknee, or whatever they're called.
Now these people are all lumped under the same umbrella term of trans, whether they have gender dysphoria or not.

Think Stefonknee's comments/tags say it all.

So what would you have this person do, that made it okay for everybody? (Let's assume that currently, they are getting bullied when they use the male toilet).

I can see you are maybe new to this debate?

Here's how this conversation would go, a quick précis.

You suggest they are bullied in the men's toilets. Firstly there is no evidence for it, but the question would be by whom? You would say men. And the assumption would be because course men are violent, right? And they're going to beat up a bloke in a dress.

And yet that logic, that men are violent, disappears when it's women who are going to be subjected to men in their toilets.

Women have to suck it up.

Do you see the inherent sexism there?

And the assumption that it is women who will suck it up, by calling it compassion, is even more sexist.

I reckon if I was running a college or similar large institution nowadays (so space not an issue as it would be in many other cases) I'd want to send out an anonymous survey asking for preference:
1)All loos mixed sex, fully self-contained cubicles. No urinals, sanitary bin and sink in each...there might need to be fewer of them.
2)Single sex female and male loos (with clarification that this is sex not gender, in line with the EA exemptions, and with the needs of religious minorities, rape survivors in mind)
3)Single sex as above plus mixed sex.

And maybe even a mix of single sex loos and single gender ones

As always, where are the TM's accounts of using the men's?

I've seen a TM acquaintance's FB post about this and how it was a bit scary at first but then felt really liberating and affirming of his true self.

The difference, of course, is that if a TM looks like a woman, that won't cause men & boys in a toilet to feel unsafe.

If a TW looks like a man, that may well cause women & girls in the enclosed space of a toilet to feel unsafe.

(That guy in the OP clearly knew that the woman recognised him as a man, and he didn't care. So he was pushing his 'rights' as a man, not as a TW.)

And maybe even a mix of single sex loos and single gender ones

I'd like to see this. Female sex toilets here, and female gender toilets there.

It would utterly show it up for the gender stereotypical nonsense it is. All the people going into the female gender one would be women and men dressed as women.

ErrolTheDragon I get that, but it means accepting having to spend money on extra facilities for people who don't want to use the facilities provided for them, or who want to use someone else's facilities because it makes them feel better.
If I had money to spend like that I'd use it to improve access and facilities for disabled people, and improve lighting and CCTV for safety. Not on reconfiguring the toilets - especially when there's evidence that some people won't use mixed sex facilities anyway as it doesn't validate their identity.