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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova states the obvious

596 replies

Glinner · 19/12/2018 12:16

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

At first I was delighted to see thisat last a big name in women's sport is speaking up! but then I got angry all over again that this utterly obvious point has to be explained to an adult, in this case, a Guardian journalist. It boggles the mind.

OP posts:
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Mumfun · 20/12/2018 13:52

She hasnt retracted just wants to stay out of it. Reasonable decision in current climate

VickyEadie · 20/12/2018 14:27

Yes, I felt she was just steering clear. Given the shite that gets dumped on anyone having the temerity to state facts on this issue on Twitter, you can see why.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 20/12/2018 14:30

Fair enough, she says pretty much the same.

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075753035203272704

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075754712069226497

BoreOfWhabylon · 21/12/2018 01:36

She's deleted the tweet after a kicking by McKinnon

smithsinarazz · 21/12/2018 02:23

Suggest she could do with a bit of support

Macareaux · 21/12/2018 05:57

Mc Kinnon has harangued her. In response to another poster Martina has posted :

I am sorry if I said anything anywhere near transphobic- certainly I meant no harm - I will educate myself better on this issue but meantime I will be quiet about it. Thank you

Macareaux · 21/12/2018 05:59

For many people, their peak trans moment comes when the TRAs push it too far. Hope this is the case for Martina.

Please give her support on twitter.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/12/2018 07:28

That McKinnon is everywhere.

VovoBickie · 21/12/2018 07:44

TBF i think everyone has that "huh?" reaction after finding out people with penises compete in women's sports.

vicviking · 21/12/2018 07:56

She should have stuck to her guns more. She doesn't need educating. The situation is plain to see. Those offering education mean gaslighting.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/12/2018 07:59

It’s intimidating though, all those people piling on - and it’s probably the very first time she’ll have been the ‘illiberal’ one or the ‘bigotted’ one in her life. It hurts your image of yourself.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 08:02

RE Renee Richards:
2012 article:
"Did Richards have an unfair advantage? Size can’t determine the answer. Other women players—Pam Shriver at the time, Lindsey Davenport and Venus Williams later—have been just as tall. (Renée was six foot two.) Because of the hormones she took, she lost 30 percent of her muscle mass and 40 pounds, taking her down to a weight of 142. She cannily emphasized that, at 43, she was hardly a threat to dominate the tour. But that shouldn’t really have mattered either. Women further down the ladder, whom Richards beat, had the same right to fair competition as Chris Evert.

In a case that paved the way for other legal victories by transgender people, the New York Supreme Court ruled in 1977 that Richards was a female. The judge said she was persuaded by the testimony of doctors who said that Richards’s muscle development, weight, height, and physique “fit within the female norm.”

As Richards predicted, she did not dominate the women’s tour, though she did make it to the doubles final of the 1977 U.S. Open and to the international ranking of 19th in 1979. She went on to coach Navratilova to two Wimbledon singles victories before returning to ophthalmology.

Despite all this, Richards has expressed ambivalence about her legacy. She continues to take pride in being “the first one who stood up for the rights of transsexuals.” But she also mused, “Maybe in the last analysis, maybe not even I should have been allowed to play on the women’s tour. Maybe I should have knuckled under and said, ‘That’s one thing I can’t have as my newfound right in being a woman.’ I think transsexuals have every right to play, but maybe not at the professional level, because it’s not a level playing field.” She opposes the International Olympic Committee’s ruling in 2004 that transgender people can compete after they’ve had surgery and two years of hormonal therapy.

The science of distinguishing men from women in sports remains unsettled. And Richards has come to believe that her past as a man did provide her advantages over competitors. “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.” She adds, “There is one thing that a transsexual woman unfortunately cannot expect to be allowed to do, and that is to play professional sports in her chosen field. She can get married, live as woman, do all of those other things, and no one should ever be allowed to take them away from her. But this limitation—that’s just life. I know because I lived it.”

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150208113015/www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/10/jewish_jocks_and_ren_e_richards_the_life_of_the_transsexual_tennis_legend.2.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20150208113015/www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/10/jewish_jocks_and_ren_e_richards_the_life_of_the_transsexual_tennis_legend.2.html

Martina Navratilova states the obvious
Helmetbymidnight · 21/12/2018 08:08

She’s right- her decades of fighting against inequality and being a trail blazer don’t count on Twitter at all. It’s really odd to see how the young woke have no respect for someone’s track record.

nottakingthisanymore · 21/12/2018 08:22

Did I read that right? Navratilova, NAVRATILOVA, thinks she needs educating about sport????????????? Really????

NotTerfNorCis · 21/12/2018 08:28

It's a shame if she backed down. She was getting a lot of hate and abuse though. It shows the power of the TRA lobby.

Men shouldn't compete in women's sports, end of.

McKinnon is a despicable ideologue.

feministfairy · 21/12/2018 08:28

This was always going to be the outcome.
The penis is not a female organ - transphobia!
Born males have a physical advantage over women - transphobia!
Women have the right to ..... transphobia!

An outstanding liberal ethical sportswoman bullied and silenced by the trans borg.

andyoldlabour · 21/12/2018 08:51

Someone (a transwoman) called Katie tweets - "Navratilova's tweet is just another variation on someone saying that if you have a penis you're not a woman." and "Trans women aren't 'born a man', you bigoted Putin regime propagandist. We are BORN girls."

When is this madness going to stop, because nobody in the media or authority seems willing to challenge this.

NotTerfNorCis · 21/12/2018 08:52

I see more sneering comments about 'why can't women compete in the same sports as men... why do we need sex segregation if we want equality.'

Because men and women are physically different. They know that perfectly well.

Men and women are physically different. That fact is fundamental to why women were oppressed in the first place and why now, in some cases, men and women need different treatment and rights. Feminists can't lose sight of that fact, ever.

hackmum · 21/12/2018 08:56

It's almost as if Rachel McKinnon is a typically aggressive male bully, isn't it?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc.

andyoldlabour · 21/12/2018 08:57

The comments section of this video, rather than the mumbling, mealy mouthed commentators will tell you how many people think about this subject.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=106&v=lDq4Jf96Fdo

andyoldlabour · 21/12/2018 08:59

@hackmum

That is exactly what McKinnon and others of their ilk are - male bullies, self promoting, narcissistic, pumped up, male bullies.

Beagadorsrock · 21/12/2018 08:59

MacKinnon, from the little I see from the sad reactions to Martina Navratilova's tweets, sounds a lot like Harrop: bow to me (not to someone else who might not say exactly what I say), because I KNOW... I think MN is smart in saying she was looking at Renee Richards, she's been a leading light in TENNIS and she'll listen to TENNIS players, not to random cyclists.
MacK just wants super-authority over everything, whereas MN has strong ties and authority in her sport.
This is indeed Maoist or Khmer Rouge

hackmum · 21/12/2018 09:01

You're right, andy. The comments are very reassuring. It does give me hope that once people outside the Twitter bubble realise what the hell is going on here, they will put a stop to it.

Annandale · 21/12/2018 09:02

There are plenty of female bullies out there. Expressing nasty views isn't a male characteristic but a human one.

There are times and places where biological sex doesn't matter at all. There are times and places where it really does matter, and sport is one of them.

FloralBunting · 21/12/2018 09:05

What I find particularly telling about the exchange between Navratilova and McKinnon is the way she is rebuked, apologizes and deletes the tweets, but McKinnon continues to berate her for not being sufficiently humble in response.

It's a terrifying example of how certain abuse works, which many women will recognize. I can only hope it serves to illustrate to even more people what kind of person McKinnon is.

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