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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova states the obvious

596 replies

Glinner · 19/12/2018 12:16

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

At first I was delighted to see thisat last a big name in women's sport is speaking up! but then I got angry all over again that this utterly obvious point has to be explained to an adult, in this case, a Guardian journalist. It boggles the mind.

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Manderleyagain · 19/12/2018 13:39

It looked like Martina was learning new things in real time on that thread - ie that trans woman athlete doesn't mean post op transsexual. Hopefully she will go away and read up, and then be prepared to speak about it.

Part of me hopes there will be lots of trans athletes in women's competition at the Olympics, and it will bring everything to a head quickly. Otherwise there could be a slow building situation where women just drop out of their sports here and there in dribs and drabs under the radar, without the majority of people realising what's happening.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 19/12/2018 13:42

good work Martina

I often look at and listen to famous women and think there's just no way she can believe TWAW. It's good when one of them confirms she has some common sense

MagicMix · 19/12/2018 13:49

Someone should tell Martina that if she had put some actual effort in during her career, she would easily have been able to compete against men.

Female athletes are just slackers doing the bare minimum.

feministfairy · 19/12/2018 13:51

MaggicMix Xmas Grin

Isn't there a professor in Liverpool who would be able to explain this to her?

MagicMix · 19/12/2018 13:54

VickyEadie - Yes, because nobody drew a firm line in the sand, they keep pushing pushing pushing. Women need to stop retreating in the mistaken belief that the next boundary will be respected, that if we just give them one more inch that will be enough. No concession will ever be enough until women's sex-based rights and all sex segregation in any context no longer exist.

arranbubonicplague · 19/12/2018 13:57

Dr Fond of Beetles useful Twitter thread that discusses CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) which goes beyond discussions of testosterone advantage.

What if we could identify a group of people who had no T? Not female typical T, not lowered to below typical female levels, but no T at all. We’d predict, if T is the only factor that confers sporting advantage, such people would be pretty damn poor at running. 6/

This group of people exists. XY genetic males with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) can produce T, but use not a single molecule of it. They are functionally T-zero. 7/
...
The IOC logic (and that of invested parties) tells us that CAIS females are going to be the least competitive of all females. After all, non-CAIS females have at least some T that they can put to use. 9/

The frequency of CAIS in the general population is 1 in 20,000. The frequency of CAIS in female athlete cohorts is 1 in 420. CAIS is nearly 50 times more prevalent in female athletes than in female couch potatoes. This is a massive overrepresentation. 10/

CAIS females succeed as athletes way more often than non-CAIS females. How puzzling that the only thing the IOC asserts confers sporting advantage is functionally absent in these females with clear sporting advantage. 11/

Whatever underpins CAIS female sporting advantage, it is independent of functional T. Thus, the IOC position that T is the only factor influencing sporting advantage - and - the only action a male must take to “fairly” compete against females is to reduce T, is untenable. End/

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1070097483408248835.html

or the following original if you prefer to see comments and discussion:

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1070097483408248835

bellinisurge · 19/12/2018 14:00

Another bit of excellent ground breaking by Martina. Over something that shouldn't need ground breaking. Again.

Glinner · 19/12/2018 14:10

Oh, sorry I thought it was The Guardian.

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Helmetbymidnight · 19/12/2018 14:41

What is going on with the BBC?

(Article on Mckinnon)

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958

OldCrone · 19/12/2018 14:49

Someone should tell Martina that if she had put some actual effort in during her career, she would easily have been able to compete against men.

Female athletes are just slackers doing the bare minimum.

Here's Beth Jones, from Nottingham Trent University telling us about how female athletes just aren't trying hard enough.

But at the same time we don't know that, and it may, and that's what I'm saying, that you know, there is a bit of an argument academically that perhaps women kind of cap their capability, psychologically, because they're competing against other women, if they feel that they're then competing against other men, who - we take it in society that men perform better than women, then perhaps they would up their performance and be competing on more of that level.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3442132-Nic-Williams-on-Womans-Hour-Tuesday-talking-about-sport-and-gender-identity?pg=4&messages=100

zen1 · 19/12/2018 14:55

Good for her. Would be nice to see other prominent athletes follow suit.

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 19/12/2018 14:59

Go Martina! She was one of my sheros when I grew up. We had a few school trips to Wimbledon and I saw her play against Stefi Graf a couple of times. Incredible. We definitely need more of the strongest of strong women to speak out. Absolutely they know what women can do and how that measures up against males. If "lived experience" is what counts in all this (as the TAs like to bang in about) then Martina has lived it. Listen up, boys!

andyoldlabour · 19/12/2018 15:48

It would be nice if high profile people such as Clare Balding, Sue Barker or Gabby Logan could speak up on this issue, and maybe some guys such as Colin Jackson, Jonathan Edwards and Michael Johnson, because I cannot believe that they agree with what is happening.

Needmoresleep · 19/12/2018 15:56

I saw her aged 16 in 1973 playing mixed doubles with Jan Kodes at Wimbledon. He was older and established and went on to win the mens singles title, and clearly was not bothered about the doubles. If Martina's sheer force of personailty and determination could have got them through the round they would have made it. I would not cross her, then or now. I was young but it is a performance that has stayed with me.

WilburforceRaven · 19/12/2018 16:00

I met in person whilst out XC skiing one time. We made total fools of ourselves when we realised it was Martina but she was very cool and kind.

silentcrow · 19/12/2018 16:07

So good to hear her speaking out.

I saw a sports friend of mine (who is also a doctor) retweet a thread about the cycling debacle - cannot tell you how relieved I was to see that! She's a brand ambassador too, I really hope that means people are getting less afraid to point out the nonsense.

HandsOffMyRights · 19/12/2018 16:10

Well Jan "stop being so academic" the trainer from Mermaids will have to idolise Caitlin now.
Martina was her heroine....

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 19/12/2018 16:20

Round of applause for Martina. She’s not going to be cowed by bullies, that’s for sure

MagicMix · 19/12/2018 16:28

Tbh I wouldn't class that tweet as speaking out. It's more of a spontaneous 'huh?' because she evidently didn't realise the scale and extent of the problem.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/12/2018 19:25

She’s not succumbing to usual tactics

Eg mobile.twitter.com/Martina/status/1075408304459911170

Martina Navratilova states the obvious
OrchidInTheSun · 19/12/2018 19:35

I saw Navratilova play Evert at Wimbledon. It was remarkable.

VickyEadie · 19/12/2018 20:08

I find it ironic that one of the woke trying to get her onside referred to "bigoted nonsense". It's not bigoted but it certainly is nonsense.

SignMeUp · 19/12/2018 20:15

Yes Martina!

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 19/12/2018 20:19

Will be interesting to see how long she maintains this position.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/12/2018 20:42

Not long

mobile.twitter.com/Martina/status/1075490500902338560

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