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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova states the obvious

596 replies

Glinner · 19/12/2018 12:16

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

At first I was delighted to see thisat last a big name in women's sport is speaking up! but then I got angry all over again that this utterly obvious point has to be explained to an adult, in this case, a Guardian journalist. It boggles the mind.

OP posts:
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34
Datun · 21/12/2018 09:53

Martina has just been subjected to her first volley of TRA bullying insanity.

She is an athlete, she does understand. She will have practised hitting with men. No doubt. She knows, exactly, why sport is sex segregated.

I don't know if she will take on this issue for women. Few people do. But, I imagine, she will certainly investigate. And the first thing I would do is look at the science. And she will be looking at that in the full knowledge of having experienced the differential.

If she's interested, I have no doubt that she will come to the correct conclusion. Whether she is willing to publicise that or not, is a different matter.

However, this is like filling up a balloon full of water. People who see through the bullying are making that balloon heavier and heavier, and it will burst eventually.

I, too, sincerely hope Martina reads this thread and winds up on mumsnet.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/12/2018 10:02

Martina Navratilova has said she's not going to engage with McKinnon or the 'Katie' troll on twitter anymore, but going to find out more and talk to people who are experts.

Good.

Iused2BanOptimist · 21/12/2018 10:05

PhD in Specious Twattery. Rod Liddell sums up the MacKinnon bully nicely.

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/good-news-now-everyone-can-be-a-victim/amp/

Also too cowardly to argue her point on woman's hour.

Martina Navratilova states the obvious
BoreOfWhabylon · 21/12/2018 10:11

Right, have managed to report McKinnon for targeted harassment.

I've also looked at McKinnon's tweets in private browsing. McK is railing at Martina for blocking McK!

Must say, McKinnon doesn't seem to have many supporters.

Manderleyagain · 21/12/2018 10:14

How does twitter work? Will the exchanges between McKinnon and Navratilova appear to all of Martina's 250 000 followers? Do you see everything being written by the people you follow?

Rachel McKinnon is an absolute gift to the gender critical cause. The more people who see her behaviour the better. She embodies all the bad bits of current trans activism and magnifies them.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/12/2018 10:15

Yeah... that tweet does tell you all you need to know about McKs attitude, but not it the way McK meant.

HandsOffMyRights · 21/12/2018 10:19

I'm blocked by McKin it all up, but have still reported the account.

They are a nobody. Martina is a somebody who got her break because she competed against women. Other girls need that same break, rather than the type of break Mouncey and Fox will force.

Datun · 21/12/2018 10:21

I wonder if Martina also knows that McKinnon exhorts children with 'unsupportive parents' to contact them and become part of their glitter family.

4thwavenow.com/2017/05/14/mtof-tells-trans-kids-to-dump-moms-on-mothers-day-and-join-the-glitter-queer-family-of-adult-trans-activists/

papayasareyum · 21/12/2018 10:38

does McKinnon know who Martina is, what she achieved in women's sport? She's an amazing athlete, who competed fairly with other women. That's how women's tennis, women's cycling, women's sport should be.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 10:39

Guardian interview,
'Martina Navratilova: 'I want to save lives'
Martina Navratilova's breast cancer revelation is the latest in a long line of very public battles. She tells Julie Bindel why she is speaking out'

(extract)
"So what was behind her decision to go public with the illness? "I want to save lives by telling women to go for the test, and be vigilant, but there is a cost to me, for sure. Last week I did 20 interviews straight and the following evening, when I played tennis, I was exhausted – but it was emotional, not physical, exhaustion.

"I need to pace myself – I don't want [the illness] coming back because I got so stressed trying to raise awareness. Sometimes things bunch up and get out of control, as it has this week, but I have a vacation coming."

The Recap: sign up for the best of the Guardian's sport coverage
Read more
Now that Navratilova has gone public, she is bound to be contacted by women asking for support. How does she feel about that?

"I will do it, of course, but it's not easy. I spoke to Robin Roberts, the anchor on Good Morning America, who is a really good friend of mine. She had breast cancer three years ago, and had chemo and the works. I asked her how she deals with it, and she admitted the problem is you can't get away from it. Doing all these interviews, I get asked, 'How did you feel when you found out? How do you feel now?' – you can't escape it."

The world's most famous out lesbian, the most successful female tennis player of all time, is in the UK at the invitation of the gay rights organisation Stonewall. Last night, she delivered the keynote speech at its annual dinner and auction, alongside Gareth Thomas, the first out professional rugby player. This year's theme is homophobia in sport, an issue Navratilova knows a lot about.

"It hardly occurs to anyone that sportsmen are gay," she says, "but with women they almost have to prove they are straight. A journalist would never dare ask a male athlete, unless they were a figure skater, 'Are you gay?' But it is OK to ask a female tennis player."

I ask what can be done to encourage more sporting icons to come out. "Change has to come from the top. They don't allow antisemitic rants or whatever racist bullshit to be shouted from the stands, and they should not allow the homophobic stuff – but it seems like it is zero tolerance of all other bigoted crap, and 95% tolerance of anti-gay stuff."

However, the UK, she says, is "way ahead" of the US in tackling homophobia. We talk about the fact that Stonewall has support from the three main political parties, and she tells me she is "amazed . . . It would never happen in the States. The Republicans treat us like lepers."

I tell her how important her coming out in 1981 was for lesbians at the time. She was the first decent role model we had, and remains one of a chosen few almost three decades later. Does it feel like a responsibility?

"Of course it is. I am a role model for kids who look up to me, and to the game. [In all, Navratilova has won nine Wimbledon singles titles amid a mind-boggling total of 59 grand slam titles.] But then I do something that the press picks up on, and straight people say, 'Oh, that's what those dykes are like.'" (continues)

Is she a feminist? "Of course! How can a woman not be? If a woman says she is not, I say to her, 'So you want to be paid just 70% of what the guys are for the same job?' Then she says no, and I say, 'So you're a feminist.' Feminism is about equal rights, no more. I just don't want it to be an issue. Full stop. Period. We have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go."

What is it that made her such a political person? "I think, originally, it came from being told what to do and what I was supposed to be while growing up in a communist country." (Navratilova defected from Czechoslovakia to the US in 1975, but visits her sister and her two children there often.) "I have always had a disdain for authority and stupid rules that make no sense, and I still do. I always question authority – always have, always will."

Partly because of this, Navratilova has experienced more than her fair share of hostility from the crowds. I recall one Wimbledon when she played Chris Evert, the heterosexual, feminine, all-American girl who seemed such a sharp contrast to Navratilova's ambiguous sexuality, big muscles and eastern-European scowl.

"Oh yes," she says, "It was tough. If I complained about a line call, ooh they got on my case immediately. It didn't take much. Imagine them booing Federer or Nadal, or any guy really, if they complained? No frickin' way."

Yet now, she laughs, "I can't do anything wrong. Over here [in the UK], I could run for office and win. People are like, 'Oh, Martina!' I have a whole new class of fans I didn't know I had." (Some, of course, the result of her 2008 appearance on I'm a Celebrity, Get me Out of Here!)

Out of the blue, she asks, sort-of tongue-in-cheek (but with Navratilova you never can tell), "Say, when am I gonna get knighted or whatever it is?" Would she like to be Lady Martina, then? "Who wouldn't?" (continues)

www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/apr/15/want-save-lives-martina-navratilova

QuietContraryMary · 21/12/2018 10:40

McKinnon is a narcissist fuckwit of the highest order. There's a thread on KiwiFarms which is quite informative

NotTerfNorCis · 21/12/2018 10:56

Wow that Kiwifarms thread is interesting.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 11:12

h/t KiwiFarms
Dr Rachel Mckinnon phd:

"In my doctoral dissertation, Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About, I attempt to articulate some of the normative relationships between important epistemic concepts such as evidence, truth, knowledge, and belief, on the one hand, and our linguistic practice of assertion on the other..... " continues

archive.fo/RwTWf#selection-211.0-215.219

Biscuit
Datun · 21/12/2018 11:16

What a pisstaker!

Rhys's response has been to proclaim that he is "an internationally recognized expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport"

"A philosophy professor is not an expert in any science, and Rhys's own website and university bio say that their main work is in "epistemology" and "linguistics". claiming to be a sports expert was 100% made up. It does go hand in hand with his dissertation, titled " Reasonable Assertions: On Norms of Assertion and Why You Don't Need to Know What You're Talking About". No seriously, that's his philosophy dissertation."

Datun · 21/12/2018 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 11:29

I hop Dr Mckinnon comes onto this board for a science discussion.
Would be pretty quick to disabuse such inaccurate assumptions.

(Bowl usually very happy to talk science and would be very patient)

Martina Navratilova states the obvious
ChiefClerkDrumknott · 21/12/2018 11:52

R0wantrees That exchange really does smack of “stupid woman”, doesn’t it? Bullying and insulting tactics, what a shock

BettyDuMonde · 21/12/2018 12:06

Speechless.

You’d think a cheating bullshit merchant like RM would have the good sense to stay away from actual internationally recognised superstars of women’s sport...

But clearly, RM is either unable or unwilling to reign in RM’s rampant misogyny and narcissism.

QuietContraryMary · 21/12/2018 12:09

"I hope Dr Mckinnon comes onto this board for a science discussion.
Would be pretty quick to disabuse such inaccurate assumptions."

Nope nope nope.

McKinnon lives in trans-la-la land. Do have a read of the KiwiFarms thread. There's a bit about the war waged against one of McKinnon's ex-colleagues about pronouns.

You cannot disabuse these people of anything. They exist only to loudly hector.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 12:10

You’d think a cheating bullshit merchant like RM would have the good sense to stay away from actual internationally recognised superstars of women’s sport...

But clearly, RM is either unable or unwilling to reign in RM’s rampant misogyny and narcissism.

Dr McKinnon has managed to silence female critics very successfully though, both in academia, sports and online.

Its not unreasonable (based on precedent) for Dr McKinnon to assume the same.

Its stupid, but understandable.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 21/12/2018 12:10

I do think Martina needs to be left in peace to think about all this now though. We don't want her to feel bombarded from our side.

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 21/12/2018 12:11

It might be useful to signpost Martina in the direction of Peach Yoghurt on YouTube for a crash course in the TRA wasps nest that she inadvertently disturbed.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Perzikyoghurt

Thanks Martina. McKinnon is a real piece of work. Sportswoman my arse.

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 12:11

Nope nope nope.

McKinnon lives in trans-la-la land. Do have a read of the KiwiFarms thread. There's a bit about the war waged against one of McKinnon's ex-colleagues about pronouns.

You cannot disabuse these people of anything. They exist only to loudly hector.

It was more of a nice imagining that expectation! Smile

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 12:12

apologies, typo should read, "than expectation!"

Melamin · 21/12/2018 12:13

Just seen this on twitter.

Martina rocks!

I'm not lesbian, can't play tennis and can't volley on twitter. But for me she is a star. Always has been since I used to watch her, along with Billie-Jean and Evonne Goolagong (brilliant name) and wonder how they managed to hold those tennis rackets with one hand, and two tennis balls without throwing them both. She just goes from strength to strength. Fantastic role model.

The idiots on twitter are idiots.

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