Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Obviously if someone is wanking in a changing room they’re committing a public indecency offence and should be removed.

Are there any rules on what bodily functions are ok for women in changing rooms? Is flashing an erection your way an indecency, if a woman does it?

Guardian February 2018

One in five women have been sexually assaulted, analysis finds
Official analysis from latest Crime Survey of England and Wales lays bare extent of problem

One in five women in England and Wales have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, according to official analysis of violent crime figures.

The latest release of findings from the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows more than 510,000 women – an estimated 3.1% of all women aged 16 to 59 – experienced some type of sexual assault in the past year.

They also show an estimated 4.3 million women (26%) and 2.4 million men (15%) have experienced some form of domestic abuse since the age of 16. An estimated 1.2 million women (7.5%) and 713,000 men (4.3%) experienced some form of domestic abuse in the past year.

The detailed ONS analysis estimates that more than 443,000 women experienced at least one sexual assault involving indecent exposure or unwanted touching in the 12 months to March 2017. An estimated 144,000 experienced rape or an attempted rape or assault by penetration.

The figures, which come after a string of allegations against Harvey Weinstein and others, show women are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual assault.

Less than 4% of men have experienced sexual assault in their adult lives, meaning women are five times more likely to have experienced it.

The police-recorded crime figures show 121,187 sexual offences were reported in the year to March 2017. This represents a 14% increase in the number of sexual offences recorded by police, which the ONS said is partly due to improved recording. There remains a high level of under-reporting." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures

@interestingdebatetoday

I can't respond tonight, I will try to in the morning, but do read my posts, I listen closely to the shifts in arguments, and so I am always connecting dots. You are in that middle space which is being capitalised on, deliberately and manipulatively.

So what happens when start offin a non sexualised situation in a mixed changing room and someone else decides that actually it is a sexualised situation for them. Do you then ask them to hold onto their thought processes for a wee while until you get dressed again.....got a feeling it might not work out too well. This is the thread that keeps on giving 😉
Re oestrogen and prostate cancer see PATCH trial ( Cancer Research UK).

Today's Sun
'Transgender prisoner numbers rise sparking fresh safety fears over women’s jails
The number of cons identifying as transgender rose from 139 to 125 last year'
THE number of transgender prisoners has risen again to 139 - with more than 20 men identifying as women now thought to be in female-only jails.
(extract)
"New figures released by the Ministry of Justice show the growing scale of the practice despite the high profile case of trans rapist Karen White who attacked two inmates after being moved to a women's prison.

The report reveals that the overwhelming majority of transgender prisoners in the UK are men now identifying as women or other genders, at 111 of the 139.

It also revealed 42 of the prisoners are in women's jails with 22 of these now identifying as female - suggesting they were originally men.

The total is a rise on last year's figures which showed 125 transgender crooks in 47 of the 124 jails in England and Wales with 60 of those serving time for sexual offences including 27 rapists.

Experts have told how they understand all women identifying as men would be in female prisons while some transgender men have moved to one of the 12 women’s jails across England and Wales.

Around four-fifths of those identified last year - 99 - were men identifying as women while 23 were women now living as men - with the latter figure remaining the same this year.

This was a rise from 70 transgender inmates recorded in the prison system in 2016.

The government's policy to allow trans men identifying as women into female prisons has been questioned after at least one high-profile case of a transgender man sexually abusing women in jails.

In October trans rapist Karen White, 52, was handed a life sentence for two rapes outside of jail and two sexual assaults on women in HMP New Hall, Wakefield.

White, described as a sexual "predator” and born Stephen Wood, had been transitioning when she was moved to the women’s jail while on remand for the other rape offences.

But she went on to sexually assault two more women in jail after identifying as a woman and wearing a wig, make-up and false breasts.

She had previously violently raped one woman in her 20s and another pregnant woman by spiking her drink.

White had even admitted to probation officers she was sexually interested in children and could abuse a child and “think nothing of it”.

Campaigners and experts have warned more cases like Karen White will occur under the government’s policy with a number of male sexual predators able to transfer to women’s jails.

They include Michelle Lewin, 51, a transgender paedophile born Shaun Pudwell, who has been moved to a women’s prison despite a history of grooming underage girls.

Female inmates at HMP Peterborough, many of whom are vulnerable or abuse victims, are said to be terrified of Lewin who has been legally certified as female.

Lewin’s Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) means she does not appear in prison statistics as transgender and therefore is not one of the 139 inmates recorded by authorities this year.

Any prisoner who has received a GRC is legally categorised by their new gender so is not included in the numbers of transgender inmates.
Prisoners who have not told authorities of their gender swap would also not be listed in statistics.

The figures only include prisoners who have had a meeting with senior managers to discuss how they, as a transgender person, should be managed in the prison estate.

Sources have told The Sun that in some prisons such as HMP Littlehey, Cambs. - which is largely a sex offenders’ jail for men – inmates are regularly swapping their genders back and forth." (continues)
www.thesun.co.uk/news/7851765/transgender-prisoner-numbers-rise-sparking-fresh-safety-fears-over-womens-jails/

I wouldn’t worry. There does seem to be an inappropriate lack of reaction to date but this is more to do with a lack of awareness rather than everyone being right on. Once the public concision is hit I guarantee there will be a different reaction but am a bit concerned that it won’t happen until after all this daft legislation is forced through. Still won’t make a difference to public opinion though. Tell some salt of the earth blue collar bloke his beloved daughter has to hang out with some geezer they’ll kick off regardless of what the latest guideline says

Sources have told The Sun that in some prisons such as HMP Littlehey, Cambs. - which is largely a sex offenders’ jail for men – inmates are regularly swapping their genders back and forth."

It's a predators' charter.

Datun the article concludes:

"And The Sun has been told how the transgender prisoners at Littlehey – where publicist Max Clifford served his jail time before his death – operate as a single “gang” in the prison.

A source said: “They roam around the prison estate together as one gang – that’s both for protection and because they obviously share a common bond now.

“A lot of them are chancers and regularly switch back and forth – for them it’s just a game to frustrate the prison authorities and tie them up in red tape.”

Prison governors are also said to have turned down a number of requests by male prisoners identifying as women to transfer to female jails as they found them to be “insincere”.

Meanwhile transgender criminals are continuously entering the prison system with more than 20 convictions of trans men identifying as women reported this year alone.

Jacinta Brooks, 41 – previously known as Duncan Smart - was jailed for 11 years last month after pretending to be a boy to groom a 12-year-old girl.

Brooks, who had targeted children twice before, had been grooming the child to send indecent pictures of herself.

The transgender crook, of Winchester, Hampshire, had previously been released from prison two years ago after serving 13 years for attacking a girl under 16 in 2003.

A judge described her as a “danger to children” in court in October.

Expert Richard Garside, director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, said: “In the figures GRCs are not even formally recorded by the prison service as transgender because they have legally changed.

“We are only talking about prisoners identifying as trans so that’s one complexity.

“I know anecdotally some prisoners have been turned down for transfer because the governor considers them to be insincere or posing a significant risk to women prisoners."

Statements from earlier this year:

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Claude Knights (safeguarding expert, 15 years as head of Kidscape)
on sex offenders who transition and are afforded the opportunity to change their name and hide their history as a consequence & recent case of "Christopher Noble, 32, transitioned to Christyl Knight while behind bars for keeping a stash of over 4,000 vile pictures and videos of kids as young as six months old"

“Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”
“Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

Source: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

“I know anecdotally some prisoners have been turned down for transfer because the governor considers them to be insincere or posing a significant risk to women prisoners."

Thank goddess some people still have common sense and are not afraid of offending a trans person.

I am honestly surprised by this.

Seeing as people who don't personally have contact with those sex offenders think sex offenders will magically never try to get into women's prisons, or if they do, those who enabled them to are not to blame because they tried very, very hard to not think about which consequences it would have for somen in prison.

Fairplay For Women:

"Senior figures in the criminal justice system have been warning of those dangers for some time and FPFW said MPs can no longer ignore the evidence.

Others who have expressed concern include:

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association said in June 2018: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence. Women prisoners are very vulnerable.”

The British Psychological Society has said this: “psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons”

Dr James Barrett of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists has said this: “It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this”
fairplayforwomen.com/sex-attacks/

Petition
'Review rules that allow male prisoners who identify as female in women's prisons
Fair Play For Women is calling for MPs to ensure the relevant prison rules are urgently reviewed, in full consultation with women's organisations. Prison guidance PSI-17/2016 allows male prisoners who identity as female to be moved to a female prison at the discretion of a Transgender Case Board.

No women's organisations were consulted when the prison rules were updated in 2016. The effect on female prisoners has not been adequately assessed. Current rules are not fit for purpose and must be urgently reviewed.'

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767?fbclid=IwAR3_oaVuVklaj7SGRw3eUgb31ZynWgdBSP4OT9AQ_b-ZSt8_GG82P0kDnDQ

Delurking just to say littlebrowndog is my spirit animal.

Violence in prisons by women is worrying....www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

Today in fantasies and deflections attempted by people trying desperately to avoid reality we have "women do it too!"

(Occasionally, but in much smaller numbers, and no, this doesn't mean that be-penised individuals belong in women's prisons.)

And yes, littlebrowndog is brill.

For those reading, it is worth considering why posters on the Feminism and Women's Rights Board would wish to derail/deflect posts about the obvious dangers when rapists, paedophile and violent males are locked in by the state with vulnerable female prisoners, whether essential deeply traumatic cancer treatments make women less womanly and men less a manly & why discussion about the high and rising levels of sexual abuse against women and girls by males shoud not be acknowledged.

littlebrowndog is a woman of few, well chosen, wise words!

Oh well if women are violent in prisons why not just stick a bunch of Male people in there as well.

No, but you only post violence by trans women. I was just trying to balance it out a bit.

Why? What’s your point?

Male violence is the point because it’s male bodied people coming into female spaces.

The ‘women are being beaten up anyway so what difference does adding a few males in there make’ argument is not the gotcha you think it is.

to be) do you think that female people a

Sorry for that last garbled line, it was a delete fail.

When violent women are being placed in men's prisons and somehow manage to constitute a threat, derailers can fill their fucking boots on here.

Of course, we'll have the men taking over as primary givers of birth before that happens...

deepwatersolo that's truly depressing.

*Violence in prisons by ‘women’ is worrying....’

Fixed that for you.