Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

That argument makes no sense at all, unless you are arguing that women should not be able to take their male babies swimming. Its clearly not about male, or female, but about the maturity of those males.

Of course it makes sense. Changing rooms are sex segregsted. Thats it. Thats the rule.

However it is widley accepted that babies and young children can enter those spaces as they are babies and young children. It is also accepted that when they reach a certain age then they can no longer ignore the rule of sex segregation.

And if you agree that women should be able to take male babies into that changing room, or male toddlers, or male preschoolers, or male reception age children, or male KS1 children, then there is -nothing- pathetic about me saying that it is actually a female and young male changing room.

I think that most of you arguing against young boys being in the female changing room either don't have sons or else had a male relative always available.

And cosmic you keep saying 9 years. But posters here are saying 7 or 8, so not 9.

You did not say I hated women. I paraphrased.

Fucking made it up more like

Same discussion was there 1 week ago. I happen to have a boy, 7, and wonder how I should proceed in the future, particularly with loos. The arguments are 1. women's ' dignity needs to be respected, so ollder boys need to stay out. I agree. 2. Boys are vulnerable in male changing rooms and toilets, alone. I agree. 3. Men's dignity needs to be respected. Nope. As long as men don't get their shit together and have these high prevalences of violence, I can't see that they deserve their dignity more than my son deserves protection. So they may have to live with a mum entering the loo so far that she can see her son enter and leave the stall. And that is that.

Weetabix
I have 2 sons 16 yo 14 yo and twin dds.

In most swimming pools I have used its 9 yo if some have it set lower then thats fine.
My youngest ds was using male changingrooms by 8 yo. Oldest DS changed in a family room or disabled facility with me until he was 12.

But the boys don't change at that age very often. The point is, we are talking about prepubescent boys here. Not men.

I don't remember how old the boys in my primary school were when they started the sexualized bullying of the girls who already had breasts, but they obviously cannot have been older than ten.

And I remember it very vividly. And that was before internet porn.

The boys may not have deep voices or growing beards yet, but they sure are already able to behave in a very inappropriate way, and very interested in voyeurism.

Some boys might not be like that, but as with men, once you grant one accesss, you grant all of them access. The only way to exclude them is by age.
I'm in favour of a cutoff age of 6. Old enough for school, old enough to change by themselves.

Besides, a girl of 8 who already has fully developed breasts (as happened in my primary school class, too) will feel sexual shame and will want privacy from boys HER OWN age, regardless of whether THEY already started puberty or not.

Find a solution that doesn't disadvantage women and girls.

(Someone on this thread said that girls should use cubicles if they want privacy. That's totally bonkers, there's more girls and women who want privacy than mothers with male children. Why should the majority wait in long lines just so that the minority can do as they please? Why don't women who want to take their too-old boys with them use cubicles?)

deepwatersolo

What?! Are you kidding?

Boys can't go in the ladies because girls deserve their privacy and dignity to be maintained but it's ok for you, an adult woman, to go into the men's toilet to keep an eye on your son? Where boys are using the urinal? So what about their right to privacy and dignity?

How would you describe the attitude towards women of people who "have an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity"? Hate? Lack of respect?

I'm fairly certain you weren't telling me that you thought I had a wonderful attitude towards women and their rights. Perhaps I was a little dramatic, though I personally would stop short of "fucking making it up". What word would you have had me use, instead of hate?

Why don't women who want to take their too-old boys with them use cubicles?)

Perfect.

My son used the mens toilet on his own at around 6.
I used to stand outside the door and wait. Whats wrong with doing that? He never came to any harm. Plus he did not want to "use the girls toilet".

Deep water solo, that is a perfectly viable solution - women escorting their sons through the male changing rooms. I don't actually have an issue with that.

I don't think its about a right to privacy from the opposite sex, but about providing a safe environment, and protecting people from the fear of abuse as well as actual abuse. And I really don't think a woman in the men's changing rooms affects those things.

nell i asked you are question hence the ?

You decided that my asking you a question was me saying you hated women. I think fucking making it up sums that up perfectly.

CosmicCanary

If he's ok about doing it no problem.

How would your son feel about deepwater walking in to supervise her son? Is that ok?

So not ok for boys to go in female changing cos privacy but fine for a woman to go into mens toilet where boys are using the urinal? Because they have no right to privacy?

Cosmic canary, the question:

"Why do you have such an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity?"

is not the same as the question

"Do you have an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity?"

so please, do not pretend it was a question, and not an accusation.

How would your son feel aboutdeepwaterwalking in to supervise her son? Is that ok?

He would not like it and I dont agree with it either.
For me sex segregation is just that. Its pretty clear.
Granted there is a general acceptance that small children are allowed to ignore the rule but that changes at a certain age and then they have to follow the rules.

so please, do not pretend it was a question, and not an accusation.

Is was quite clearly a question. I was asking why because your posts clearly put females rights to dignity bottom if a males right to be in a female space.

My youngest is the only Male in house, I’m going to have to work out plan as and when they arise.

He is entitled to his space too also needs to learn and respect boundaries, just because one person happy that doesn’t mean can sod the rest. If keep make allowances, when do say no at what age? Again it dumped back to women being responsible & having to make allowances this is what I don’t want my son to learn women always having to make allowances. If I can’t go swimming (of course I will) because don’t feel son safe in Male changing room then have to make alternative arrangement come up with plan b, why do girls/women have to just shut & put up.

So I stand by my earlier post in answer to the original question.

Boys can't go in the ladies because girls deserve their privacy and dignity to be maintained but it's ok for you, an adult woman, to go into the men's toilet to keep an eye on your son? Where boys are using the urinal? So what about their right to privacy and dignity?

Safety from abuse trumps privacy. Gosh, my presence might even safe some random boy. I'll reevaluate once men have their house in order. Which will probably be never.

CosmicCanary, I stand corrected. You are right, it was a question, because it ended in a question mark. But that does not stop it being an accusation as well. Its grammatical structure does nothing to belie its intent. I think you are being very disingenuous.

This is ridiculous. Can anyone tell me why and 8 or 9 year old can't use the family change?

I thought it was all about non swimmers jumping into the pool?

The pools I have been to have either been male/female or mixed sex. I haven't been to any which have been male/female +family change, though these sound ideal.

There you go then - mixed sex. What's the problem?

I think you are being very disingenuous.

No nell I am not. You just dont like the fact I asked you a question, you then lied about what I said and I called you on it.

I don't have any problem with mixed sex at all. Or male/female with family. And I think that the issue with children who cannot swim, being taken swimming in pools without mixed sex facilities is vanishingly small.

I'm pretty sure I've said all those things.

But I do think that we should be careful at what point we draw the line between child and man. And I do think its important. For example, up to what age should male dependants of abused women be allowed into Women's Refuges? Are sons allowed in if they are mirroring the behaviour of their abusive fathers? Where does the line between men and boys occur in that context?