Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

nellodee

Why don't you start a thread about that.

The NSPCC children's charities, etc recommend age 8 as the cut-off point. If you have a different opinion, and a good argument around that, start a thread.

Girls as young as seven are experiencing sexual hareassment in schools and require single sex provision as a result, in certain circumstances.

That's what girls require, and what the guidelines provide for.

Safety from abuse trumps privacy. Gosh, my presence might even safe some random boy. I'll reevaluate once men have their house in order. Which will probably be never.

So it's ok for adult men to accompany their daughters into the female changing room? Clearly it isn't. And no it's not for an adult woman to go into the men's toilets where boys are using the urinal.

Young boys going into the female changing room, where usually everyone will be changing in cubicles is in no way the same as an adult women going into the men's loos boys are using the urinal.

Girls as young as 7 are not being harassed by 7 year old boys in the presence of their mothers.

I joined this thread because of a particular fear of mine regarding children unattended around water. As I have said, I really don't think its a vital matter, given the figures involved. I do think people are wrong in treating boys as men. There is obviously a need for a cut off point, but I think 8 places it perilously low. I like things to be evidence based, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever for that being the age of coming into dangerous penis-hood. I see my children at that age and they are so definitely girls, and nowhere close to being women.

I've only really been invested in this thread because people were criticising my skills as a teacher, a mother, querying my credentials as a feminist, etc. I don't actually feel invested enough in the topic to begin my own post.

It has been quite an eye opener, though, of the dangers of straying even an inch from the party line (and really, my opinions are hardly more than a few mm from the standard). I remind myself that I should not transpose the tone of the very few openly insulting posts with those that merely disagree with my opinion (which are totally fine!). I have huge respect for the work being done by the women here, but it does challenge your perceptions when you are on the receiving end of personal jabs.

It's the internet though, innit?

And no it's not for an adult woman to go into the men's toilets where boys are using the urinal.

I thought you were a fan of cubicles?

Actually, you know what - its not that I don't feel invested enough. That makes it sound like I don't think the topic is worthy enough of my attention. Its more that I don't feel like I have a handle on what is really important, and that I think if I raised an issue, people would think I was just stirring up shit to hear myself speak.

I thought you were a fan of cubicles?

You what? In changing rooms, yes.

In the male toilets there is a urinal. So when this mum goes in with her son she will walk past boys using the urinal.

But that is ok is it? You're ok with an adult woman seeing boys genitals, in the boys toilet, so that girls and women don't have to see an 8 or 9 year old boy walk past the cubicle that they are in?

6 pages of how old a hoy should be to be allowed in the female only changing area of a swimming pool

On a thread about transwomen being considered women in the future

I think even the OP has got bored and buggered off

Ha! OP was just checking back in to see if it was still being discussed 😁

I think the consensus has been no, TWAW will not survive to become the accepted version of the lie truth in the future

I hope the 'woke' world wakes up soon

I’m younger than most on here. All of my friends are educated and most would class themselves as feminists, some are passionate regarding their feminist identities. I think all of them would think the views expressed on this board are transphobic and bigoted.

Which views are transphobic?

interesting

I had a horrible feeling that you would have posted in the time it took me to type

think all of them would think the views expressed on this board are transphobic and bigoted

What all the views?

I wasn’t name calling. I said, that would be the views of my friends. Friends who are active feminists. My point was to answer the question?
It’s not actually a view I agree with but to answer the question from the op, I do think that most of society will accept that trans women are women.

Rufus, the majority view that trans women are not women and that self ID is not good for women’s rights.

I wasn’t name calling. I said, that would be the views of my friends. Friends who are active feminists.

I think you mean philanthropists. If anything.

Feminism is about women's rights. Those who would call women bigoted for wanting privacy and safety are not feminists.

They might do a lot of good for the human species in general, but they are not and cannot be feminists, because they clearly do not prioritize women's safety.

Why can't people just be honest?

Thank you 3wildones

Rufus, the majority view that trans women are not women and that self ID is not good for women’s rights.

Yes indeed, it is the majority view in this country. Not just the thread.

Rufus, the majority view that trans women are not women and that self ID is not good for women’s rights.

What "women's rights?"

Which right that women want is harmed by not believing that male people (you know, those who have, or had at some point, a penis and testicles) can be women?

Name just one. A right that really affects women, not just transwomen.

On the other hand:

Women's right to safety from sexual violence is harmed by believing that trans women are women.
So is women's right to participate in professional sports and in amateur sports that require a changing room.

That's two rights. And I could think of more.

nell you can always ask one of swimming pool staff to pop in, there are also fathers with their children or u can practice with child setting times with stopwatch before u send in Male search party. There are ways around it

Ah, sorry, disregard my post, I think I misread something.

Feminism is about women's rights. Those who would call women bigoted for wanting privacy and safety are not feminists.

Indeed. Your friends can think they can repurpose feminism to suit their male friends, but they're damaging women's rights. Feminism isn't about males and their issues.

Feminism is a movement by, for and about women. It's really ok for female people to say no, and organise for their rights.