Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

You can't believe TWAW without making the word, the concept 'woman' devoid of real meaning.

I agree... but I did find myself thinking perhaps that's exactly what will happen somehow in 70+ years time

Is that biological fact or social conditioning that makes men more likely to be violent?

A combination. Biology is part of male violence - physically better at it than women, on average even if nothing else. But social conditioning can moderate or exacerbate this - some societies are much more violent than others.

but I did find myself thinking perhaps that's exactly what will happen somehow in 70+ years time

Then a different word will replace it. Women will still be women whatever the word.

ErrolTheDragon

Yes, I suppose cis-woman is what they currently use. I find it offensive personally but probably in the same way a transwomen feels they should be allowed to simply use "woman" and wholly included in the catagory as equal

Some/many children may believe what they are taught about being able to change sex but life and exposure to trans people will make them realise that you can't.

Your friend may say that TWAW but does she honestly treat her trans friends in the same way she treats a woman? Would she have the same type of conversations and interactions with a TW as she would with a natural woman e.g. the chat she had with you today. Or does she treat them differently because they are different? Thinking about the TW I know, none of them 'act' like women. They do not have female interests, female body language, female empathy or female insight and the same is true for all TW I have seen in the media.

Thinking about the TW I know, none of them 'act' like women. They do not have female interests, female body language, female empathy or female insight and the same is true for all TW I have seen in the media.

One day the distinctive behaviour will be labelled.

After WW1, soldiers experiencing shell shock displayed certain behaviour.

After WW2, behaviour displayed in films shaped PTSD symptoms and there was less shaking in the men.

All noted by Armed forces psychiatrists.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0brzl3w/wwis-secret-shame-shell-shock

As an example of what I mean by female empathy, insight and body language see the protestor from 4.40

Then contrast that with the people on the stairs who say they are 'women'

No amount of hormones or surgery will change that.

I wondered Thingybob on a daily basis she probably interacts with far more TW irl than I ever will. My interactions with TW are mainly online and probably very polarised with TW TRA's on twitter. Irl I find facial recognition hard - tbh I likely won't have a clue I am unless they hold a long conversation with me and the deeper voice, broader and taller build occurs to me enough that I look at the throat area to check.

Debbie Hayton is probably one of the few I have interacted with online who I do feel displays the empathy and insight I find in females - but Debbie is very honest and truthful about how she was born, and lived till transitioning. Even so, on Transkids time to talk- despite my personal feeling that she very much behaves and thinks like a female, I really felt quite shocked that her wife went through so much to cope. Which I suppose is an example of women making room and holding a huge level of empathy despite the conditions it then imposes on themselves.

It's possible there is and I haven't heard of them - have any husbands remained supportive of their wives becoming transmen and accommodated that within their families? I'd be pleased to discover that isnt impossible- I suspect it is probably though

The emperor will still be naked no matter how many are deluded into thinking or coerced into saying he isn't. Sooner or later some sociopsychologist will make a study of the senile ramblings of old old women who insist that invisible clothes just don't exist and never did, and wonder if maybe there's something to what they're saying.

Yes, indeed, RibbonAurora:
The emperor will still be naked no matter how many are deluded into thinking or coerced into saying he isn't. Sooner or later some sociopsychologist will make a study of the senile ramblings of old old women who insist that invisible clothes just don't exist and never did, and wonder if maybe there's something to what they're saying.

Yes! And still, throughout it all, a certain half of humanity will still be the types who menstruate, may be impregnated by the other types, may gestate, give birth and nurture from their own bodies after giving birth. This is not likely to change, anytime soon!

When they all rub their non-gender-specific genitals together, there’ll be a particular class of non-gender-specific person that gets pregnant and one that doesn’t.

That’ll help them figure it out.

Tut tut - I might still be a woman's penis that impregnates 😉

Who knew lesbians could produce biological offspring with no male involved 🙄

It* not I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am definitely not a woman's penis that's such a wrong sentence to ever type

Brilliant posts; I am gobbling all this up. (Peak transed 2 weeks ago). I feel misogyny and fetishism has completely derailed the subject....... and they are winning at the moment.

Nah, this is a temporary form of societal madness, like Satanic kindergardens and OMG sharks are going to eat us all. It's just a question of how long it will take to pass.

When the lawsuits against doctors and parents start rolling in from detransitioning adults transgenderism will have as much of a future as thalidomide.

Sometimes entire societies go mental. Sometimes it’s horrific like the Inquisition or Nazism or ISIS and sometimes it’s more benign like the 17th Century tulip mania or Fast and Furious movies

I went to an End Violence Against Women event today and heard a desperately sad story of a woman with 2 kids and a violent childhood who managed to get out of one abusive relationship only to fall for a man who then forced her in to prostitution, kept her a virtual prisoner, beat her and her kids and prevented her from seeing them as a punishment. She ran away, slept in parks and on the streets and was further abused by random men. She's now rebuilding her life. Gender didn't figure in her story. Biological sex did. It was a powerful reminder of the reality of many women's lives. Makes a mockery of the TWAW mantra.

Not all young people are so cool with Trans people.

I know a few who find those unisex loos in universities a PITA.

Women don’t want to get changed next to men and the men are not comfortable getting changed next to a woman.

Everything takes twice as long.

Will heterosexual men (or homosexual women) consider transwomen and women equally desirable?
Will heterosexual women (or homosexual men) consider transmen and men equally desirable?

Of course not.

There was a wonderful Twitter exchange where a wokebro insisted that TWAW but when asked whether he would date one, he replied "I believe that TWAW except for relationship purposes."

Ask your young friend (assuming that she's not bisexual) whether she is putting her belief that TWAW / TMAM into practice when it comes to romance and sex ...

I think you are all forgetting the reason why we don't want children to be taught that they can change sex in school. Not because we want them to be pig ignorant to transpeople, but because we don't want them medicalised unnecessarily and confused.

I hope my granddaughter grows up to treat people as she finds them, but I imagine that at some point in the future there will be a huge scandal about all the eunuchs who have been created, with major health issues, just as there was with lobotomies, and the young ones will ask us what we did to stop it.

I am sure that part of the rise of trans identity and activism is the perceived lack of alternatives. I feel like there was a notion of gender fluidity alongside rigid sex identity but that we have lost the fluidity and I wonder why.

Couldn't agree with this more, and I think the increasing rigidity and stereotyping around gender means those who don't fit into the type feel so alienated that they believe they're wrong.

They're not wrong. They're just who they are. They don't need to change their gender to conform, or be themselves.

If a man wants to wear a dress and grow his hair long, why doesn't he just do that? Why does he need to call himself a woman?

Short answer: No.

Species will start dying, islands will flood and forests will burn. The word "nature" is going to take on a whole new importance.

People won't have the time to pander.

Just out of interest, is she really not bothered by mixed sex toilets in all situations? I don’t care personally, I’ve had them at work before and never given it a second thought but... the only place I have ever actually needed them was in bars/pubs/clubs. Has she really never been in a situation where she’s needed to go to the toilet to get away from a drunk man who can’t accept no?!

As PP have said becoming a mother changes a lot of things.

1. You have to actually think of other people first (and constantly put serious thought into their well-being)
2. Practicalities, buggies don’t fit in toilet cubicles for example.

3. 9 months of pregnancy and X number of hours in labour really sharpen your notion of what a woman’s body is capable of.

people won’t have time to pander - perhaps why you currently find the most acceptance in certain groups of students?! Surely most ppl don’t give a monkey’s what other ppl do...they (me) just don’t particularly like being told what to say and think!

what if actually society moves to a place where there is no male and female? There is no gender?

I can see that happening eventually - many, many generations from now but happening all the same.

Who knows where science will take us? Maybe men will be able to have babies at some point?

Animals I presume don't know they are male or female but act on what their biology makes them behave like? (Rather than being socially conditioned to act male or female)

This is fascinating, though for the avoidance of doubt, I am in no way advocating wiping out a generation of men!

Emergence of a Peaceful Culture in Wild Baboons

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387823/