Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

@Johnnyfinland i agree

And before anyone chimes in with ‘but rape victims’ - I have been raped! Didn’t alter my feelings around this at all.

I do not think you can speak for all rape victims.

Also, if some random bloke or Jess Bradley type decides to wank off to your naked body in the changing room without your invitation - do you consider that a sexualized situation or not?

Have you read my posts?

Yes, have you read my explanation of why I am skeptical?

Bore drone bore
Derail derail derail

I've not heard of oestrogen being given here to treat prostate cancer.

I have posted two links that talk about giving estrogen for prostate cancer ffs. One of them is the Prostate Cancer Treatment Guide™.

One of the reactions a person has to being raped can be to assume that your body is not sexually attractive.

There's good naked and there's bad naked, but if your reactions is that other people always see it as bad naked, that's therapy territory.

I've not heard of oestrogen being given here to treat prostate cancer.

Who cares? Apart from you, who needs oestrogen not to be given to men to treat prostate cancer, because it messes with your batshit argument about boob cultivation 😂

I don’t believe the human body is inherently sexual outside of sexualised situations

How do we deal with non consensual situations? Where one party believes its a sexualised situation and the other doesn't. Consent is in the eye of the beholder?

😂😂

Oops not to you plague

To the Johnny of the naked wanderings

Obviously if someone is wanking in a changing room they’re committing a public indecency offence and should be removed, whether trans or male or whatever. No I can’t speak for all rape victims but neither do people who claim that ALL rape victims would find it traumatic to be in personal spaces with male bodied people speak for me. I personally - note the word ‘personally’ here - find it liberating to hold these ideologies rather than see my body as a source of shame, secrecy or potential vessel of abuse. I’ve never had any body hangups or issues around the way I look, for example, which I believe is in a large part down to how I perceive the human body and nudity in general.

I’m not advocating for enforced naturism or the removal of cubicles or denying people their right to disagree or feel differently, or belittling the reasons why some people’s trauma will lead them to have a different view, I just personally don’t think it’s a very healthy mindset. That doesn’t mean I can’t see the sense in the prevention argument. But what is the point in even asking if you don’t want to hear an opposing view, and all you’re going to do is childish remarks rather than have a discussion?

because I don’t believe the human body is inherently sexual outside of sexualised situations and I don’t think it’s healthy or conducive to body acceptance and confidence to make it so.

Datun: Yes, it would be more than brilliant for predators and bullies to think this. Instead of their victims.

As usual, Datun, you get to the core of the issue in a single sentence.

As I keep saying on threads about male sexual violence, stop looking at women's behaviour (was she clear enough in her no, was she wearing the wrong thing, or - to use the example upthread - was she hanging out with the wrong sort of men?) LOOK AT THE MEN'S BEHAVIOUR.

There are men out there - 5%, 10% (the exact proportions are disputed, but what's indisputable is that they cause a huge amount of damage to women) - for whom women, whether naked or clothed, are not people but simply prey.

And we cannot tell by looking which men these are. And even if they did have the mark of cain on their foreheads, that wouldn't help us much once they were inside spaces like changing rooms where we are vulnerable.

So we have single sex spaces. Because keeping the group from whom 99% of predators are drawn out of women's spaces is a very effective safety technique. Not foolproof of course. But certainly an effective first line of defences. It's a bit like "would you rather have zebra crossings, knowing people occasionally get run over on them, or (given that they don't prevent all road deaths) just leave pedestrians to cross a dual carriage way by darting between traffic in a hopeful sort of way?"

Omg my life is full of anticipation

You do know that the elites will kill all the commoners off once they got AI implemented so they don't have to share the scarce resources, which will be followed by the demise of the elites, who - let us not kid ourselves, we have daily proof - can't find their own arse when it is dark without outside help. (No way they can keep AI in check.)

So, this thread might be as good as it gets for us, before it all ends in drama littlbrowndog.

Naw Johnny that is not a healthy mindset
Carry on wandering naked 😂😂

@Bubonicpanic I'm busy trying to stay afloat with where it is and catch up

What makes you skeptical? If it's the NC and little history you're welcome to check with MN that I'm a long term frequent MNer but I posted a thread my friend would quickly identify herself in and pondered on linking her to it and hence I made myself unidentifiable from anything I previously posted before I began this thread

But why should women have the risk of ‘someone’ wanking in the changing rooms in the first place?

And it’s not just wanking, it’s being filmed and put on the internet which is absolutely rife!

No not all rape victims would feel uncomfortable, but some would. Just as some women who haven’t been raped would.

The onus should 100% on Male bodied people to prove they aren’t a risk to female bodies people before we let them in intimate spaces with us but apparently we have to put the horse before the cart.

Very interesting thread. I appreciate it because I also try to communicate with dear friends like the OP.

I am increasingly of the opinion that the first call to order is to define terms and dismantle the trans"umbrella".

Perhaps deconstructing "non-binary" is the way forward for now

Who cares? Apart from you, who needs oestrogen not to be given to men to treat prostate cancer, because it messes with your batshit argument about boob cultivation

Why would it even matter at all whether the guy grew boobs because he was given antiandrogens or estrogens? He could have misremembered what he was given, but ultimately, it doesn't matter at all.

Boys can grow boobs from something as mild as tea tree oil because of the estrogen-like substances in it.

Still doesn't make them female.

Breasts aren't a defining trait of women. Being born with ovaries and an uterus is. (A woman who had to have a hysterectomy is obviously a woman because if she wasn't, she wouldn't have needed a hysterectomy in the first place. I shouldn't have to write this, but I have a feeling I need to explain this to some people.)

I don’t believe the human body is inherently sexual outside of sexualised situations

This is actually the crux isn't it?

Grayson Perry freely explains he puts his dresses on as a sexual act. Every human he meets in that sexual act is a non consenting person as far as eh knows, he has not asked for consent. It's not his body is it, it's clothes?

So he has sexualised his interaction with everyone he meets whilst clothed. And yet you want us to accept the same people, cross dressers, are not sexualising in the moments when they take the clothes off ?

You may believe that, but it's naïve.

It doesn't matter only as information for anyone who might have relatives going through treatment, that's all.

No relevance to trans topics or anything purely medical.

Yes, Grayson Perry is very interesting (and very upfront) about this. I remember one interview with him where he said one of the downsides of fame is that people are no longer shocked when they encounter him, they tend to go "ooh, look, it's Grayson as Claire... autograph/selfie time!" which rather removes the frisson for him!

And yes - non-binary is a very interesting one. Given that at least one non-binary adult person (male bodied) who caused a kerfuffle over changing rooms was also on record saying they wanted to dress like an overtly sexualised fifteen year old girl, they strike me as exactly the sort of male-bodied person I want to keep out of women's changing rooms. Yet they got a national chain of stores (known for marketing to young teens) to capitulate over their presence.

(I am deeply suspicious of the motivations of some male-bodied self-identified non-binary individuals - everything they say and do seems to scream out that they want a bit of a sexual thrill from cross dressing while hanging onto all that lovely male privilege Monday to Friday during office hours.)

So if a woman is someone with boobs, then is a man getting treatment for prostate cancer (as extensively detailed here) a woman????