Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

We are all littlebrowndog. 👊

No, but you only post violence by trans women. I was just trying to balance it out a bit.

Nope, you were trying to deflect. The fact that some women are violent is about as relevant to letting men into their spaces as the fact that some men are not violent.

Calvin, that wasn't my argument. You are deliberately misinterpreting it.

Well what’s your argument then?

You imply the only threat in women’s prisons is from trans women. Any dangerous woman needs to be separated from their potential victims, whether trans or otherwise.

Any dangerous woman needs to be separated from their potential victims, whether trans or otherwise.

Only a tiny portion of the population believes males are women, so that argument isn't any good.

No, no-one is implying that.

Clearly some natal women are a threat to other women. There are documented cases of some male prison guards being a threat to women.

However, the solution to that is to tackle those problems.

Not throw up your hands and say "well, since all this bad stuff is already happening, let's make things even worse by putting Karen White and Karen's all-too-functioning male penis in there as well."

No one has suggested that the only threat in women’s prisons is trans women
That just happens to be the threat we are talking about right now.

I’d be happy for trans women to be kept separate from other women in the female estate, don’t think that’s what trans women want though.

I also don’t think it’s what’s best for the prison service as we’d have to build loads more female estates to house the amount of trans prisoners in the female estate if we allowed every male prisoner who identified as female to move over.

Karen White is a violent and risky prisoner. She needs to be dealt with differently. But let’s not tar all trans women with the same brush. We aren’t living in the Middle Ages here.

Indeed, which is why it's so odd that some people are so fixated on reintroducing the scold's bridle for those women who insist on having opinions that said people don't like.

Can I be a little tabby cat instead?

Any dangerous woman needs to be separated from their potential victims, whether trans or otherwise.

I can't get over how rubbish this argument is. For this to fly you have to provide an argument that most people believe males are part of the class women, which you can't - this is evidenced by the pink news and feminist opinion polls - very few people buy your argument.

Again we aren’t tarring all trans women with the same brush but the fact is it’s impossible to tell them if who is a rapist and who isn’t. (Though the fact the trans women are in prison in the first case is a big clue)

I personally believe there should be a third estate.

Self id law would mean anyone could get a grc and then they could sue the prison system if they weren’t moved to female estate. Literally anyone.

Again we aren’t tarring all trans women with the same brush but the fact is it’s impossible to tell them if who is a rapist and who isn’t.

What is your argument to tell who is a man and who is a TW?

But let’s not tar all trans women with the same brush.

Nobody is forcing transwomen as a cohort to demonstrate male pattern violence - it is just what the data show. As such it is justified to keep them segregated from the less violent cohort displaying female patterns.
Safeguarding and policies are and should be about statistic risks, not about individuals.

My argument?
I don’t have one.

I'm happy to tar transwomen with the fact that they are ALL male, without exception.

But I thought trans women were men.

If not then what are they.

The mere fact that they are described as trans women means they are not women.

They were not born female so they don’t have the same body or internal organs or socialisation as a female so they could never grow into a woman.

Wearing make up, putting on a frock, discussing hand bags and having surgery will never make them women. They are just outer manifestations of what these men think being a woman entails.

We tar all transwomen with the same brush that we tar all men. Which is a statistical one, based on them as a cohort, not an individual one based on the fact that you know a transwoman who's lovely.

I know plenty of lovely men, I wouldn't demand you shower with them.

I watched the other week but I've forgotten what it was about a men's prison that had a wing specifically for GBT prisoners and it seemed really sensible

They had to answer questionnaire to be on it about various things that would filter out if they were just trying to get an easier ride than general population

They had no cells just rows of bunks in a dorm but I can't remember the purpose of that

It seemed to me like a brilliant idea...

I watched the other week but I've forgotten what it was about a men's prison that had a wing specifically for GBT prisoners and it seemed really sensible

They had to answer questionnaire to be on it about various things that would filter out if they were just trying to get an easier ride than general population

Sounds like trying to get into Heaven (gay club for those who don't know) in the 1990s

vimeo.com/112138686?ref=em-share

You're probably not far wrong...

This wasn't the documentary I watched just a quick google looking for it

But... I would rather TW were in male prisons and segregated like that for their safety than put in with women

I would rather TW were in male prisons and segregated like that for their safety than put in with women

Don't they already have wings for vulnerable prisoners? Why aren't TW put in those?

There was an article where some trans prisoners complained being in the wing for safety was stopping them getting education and therapy etc it was a different prison to this one and much smaller population like 10 or less that just stayed cooped up together all the time in a small wing