Mumsnet Logo
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page

239 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:23

School with 17 children changing gender

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page
OP posts:
Please
or
to access all these features

KatVonGulag · 18/11/2018 08:27

Allow me a moment of whimsy here, but folktales are full of warnings about those who seek to cut you off from the people who care and love you. Don't trust those people.

Parents should be involved in the care of their children until that child is legally adult.
Parents should strive to be open and honest too.

In my daughter's school. DD1 bestie is trans. She's high functioning, could well have been a loner if not for DD. Trans issues raised their head around pubity (not before) coincidentally, I'm sure, as she got involved with people online. Her family is full of tragedy. She has anxiety. Her brothers have mental health issues too... cutting, stealing.
She has no male friends, no stereotypical male pursuits or interests. In fact she's very feminine. For what's that worth. Just has this idea she's a boy. Boyish magical essence.

It's bollocks. Without bollocks

Please
or
to access all these features

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 08:36

Andhow it's on there, but I bet this sticks in the BBC's throat.

Yes you, BBC, you are complicit in this indoctrination.

Please
or
to access all these features

FloralCup · 18/11/2018 08:40

Surely every parent has a right to know. Advice to keep it a secret breaks the No 1 rule about child protection.

I don't understand how keeping it a secret from parents works:

Child at school: I'm not a boy, I identify as a girl.
Teacher: oh, ok
Parent at parent-teacher night: I'm Bob's parent
Teacher: I don't have a Bob in my class
Parent: yes you do, here (shows photo) Bob.
Teacher: oh, Bobbette - she's doing well.

Has the teacher just 'outed' Bob?
Or should the teacher 'deadname' him and refer to him as Bob?

Please
or
to access all these features

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 08:43

GC women are frequently accused of being 'unkind' and transphobic. On Twitter when I expressed alarm over Butterfly, there was a backlash from the trans lobby.

Meanwhile, Mermaids is branded as 'the good guy or gal' helping children and families.

When gC women point out that the drugging and medicalisation of children is child abuse, we are demonised. Ironically, Mermaids receives praise and lots of cash.

This is why I like this quote from the article, because it asks why nobody is stepping in to stop this abuse:

They (children) will ask why nobody stopped them, told them treatment could destroy their sex life – or warned them that it would make them infertile and might not make them happy after all. They might also have lawyers asking the same questions, eyeing millions of pounds in compensation.

Please
or
to access all these features

pancaketosser · 18/11/2018 08:45

I don't really like the mail online site, but the sidebar of shame is an excellent lesson in how women and men are viewed differently by the media and are talked about in different ways.

I could quite easily see this happening to me and a friend when we were at school, and I can imagine it feels easier doing it as a group.

I really wish that it was possible to identify out of being treated like a female in society. And it doesn't surprise me that children and teenagers, who can be used to feeling like the centre of the universe, would believe that if they changed themselves, then the world will just go along with it.

Please
or
to access all these features

ChattyLion · 18/11/2018 08:57

What is the link with eugenics?

While we should be wary of trying to draw any direct historical parallel or link, in the interests of historical accuracy and respect (if we are talking about eg Nazi eugenics- not the only kind) it’s also true that they forcibly sterilised thousands of people from the social groups that they despised and also that they specifically targeted gay men for castration. On top of other horrific abuse of lesbians and gay men.

Please
or
to access all these features

jellyfrizz · 18/11/2018 08:57

And why are the kids transing now mostly female to male whilst the older transpeople seem to be male to female?

Because this:

I really wish that it was possible to identify out of being treated like a female in society.

I’m fairly sure I would be calling myself non-binary if I was a teenager right now. I’d see it as opting out of the gender bollocks foisted upon me because of my sex.

If only it were that easy.

Please
or
to access all these features

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2018 08:57

I would love to see a geographical breakdown of children identifying as trans.

Im not sure it would help in political terms. The interpretation would be that these are merely more accepting areas and more must be done in areas it wasn't happening because these areas are prejudice. I was told this over ten years ago, to explain away clustering which was known about even then.

In research terms its necessary but its highly sensitive information which could be used for targeting if it is indeed a social contagion.

My sibling came out in his mid twenties but they were part of a cluster which originated from school. They never moved away from home and all had social skills issues. One was in the same class at school and was known to our family since age 8. They had very homophobic parents too.

It's long been one of the things that has led my concerns. It never sat right.

I grew up somewhere which couldn't be more liberal, white Middle class if it tried.

Time and again I keep hearing the same things. The same pattern.

I need the research to be done, for my own peace of mind and to put my long term fears and concerns, to bed once and for all if nothing else.

I do not see how it can do harm, if it increases understanding. We either find out it is social contagion once and for all, or we can provide better support and normalise it.

Until its done, I know that I will never fully be on board as that nagging feeling will always be there. Its pretty clear I'm not alone in this.

As for mimmy prattling on about criminal offences, it would be an offence not to raise concerns that could result in harm to children too. That's the thing with whistleblowing, you can in certain circumstances, raise concerns if you have a motivation which is in the public interest.

We should always encourage a climate in which whistleblowing is understood as being fair, proportionate and legitimate if handled with care. This is a fundamental of safeguarding. Its also lawful. The main criteria being a concern that something has the potential to cause harm to others.

Protection for whistleblowers was original embedded in The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 but this was found to be lacking because the cavet of what public interest meant was woolly. However this has changed somewhat in recent years and there have been a lot of effort made to make sure anyone who has concerns reports them and is obliged to report them.

Unfortunately individuals do lose their whistleblowing rights if they go to the media. But again there are caveats here too. The media can refuse to name a source. And the act of going to the press offers its own protections. A newspaper is unlikely to publish a whistleblowing story unless they feel it in the public interest to do so. Putting it on the front page kind of makes a big point too.

Normal whistleblowing procedure is to report within the system. The entire point with this story is that it has become impossible to do so. Like was the case with North Staffs.

It has to be stressed that the reason this is on the front page of the newspaper is because of the concern that normal whistleblowing protocols are not working and this in itself needs scrutiny.

So Mimmy can spontaneously combust all she bloody well likes. It's not a good look and all it does is serve to reinforce the point that the Mail is highlighting about there being a culture in which concerns can not be raised.

OP posts:
Please
or
to access all these features

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 18/11/2018 08:57

'Young people and old people are now able to express themselves as they know who they are and they can understand it.'

Unless they are a lesbian aka a female who only fancies women and then they had better keep their mouth shut if they don't want to be called a bigot.

Please
or
to access all these features

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:01

Piers Morgan joins in;
NZBirder (@NZBirder) Tweeted:
RT @piersmorgan: Bloody ridiculous - what the hell are we doing to our children???? t.co/9eDJNtQuOs twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1064079329024507904?s=17

Please
or
to access all these features

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2018 09:08

Slightly off the point, but interesting that the Mail on Sunday chose to give over its front page to this in the middle of the Brexit crisis.

I assume they calculate that people who actually buy a Sunday paper, as opposed to reading it on line, will be more attracted by this story than the Brexit mess. Which implies a lot of resonance in middle England/Wales. (The Mail has a seperate edition in Scotland?)

Please
or
to access all these features

hackmum · 18/11/2018 09:08

This is a really excellent article - it lays out the issues in a real clear and thorough way. Well done, Sanchez Manning - I hope her bosses are giving her some acknowledgement of the work she's done on this issue.

I also wonder if this finally could be the wake-up call we've all been waiting for. This is something we've all been talking about for the past year or more, but at last a mainstream newspaper is taking it seriously. Brilliant to see it on the front page.

Please
or
to access all these features

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:14

Slightly off the point, but interesting that the Mail on Sunday chose to give over its front page to this in the middle of the Brexit crisis. *

I like to think they've done it so that the BBC is forced to put it on its site and to discuss it on TV.

The Mail brought us the Jess Bradley story. It does not shy away from tackling the issues that others are too afraid, too pc to talk about.

Please
or
to access all these features

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:16

And I'll caveat that with I am not generally a DM reader but I applaud any media that takes on this juggernaut, knowing the possible consequences.

Please
or
to access all these features

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2018 09:17

There is a second article in the Mail which relates to the front page

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6402003/Well-look-rush-change-childrens-sex-one-darkest-chapters-medicine.html
In 20 years we'll look back on the rush to change our children's sex as one of the darkest chapters in medicine, says psychotherapist BOB WITHERS

This blind adherence to ideology has real, dangerous consequences.

In my field, for example, many psychotherapists are now afraid to properly question a patient who identifies as trans: afraid to explore their past, ask questions of their sexuality, or look into their mental health. They won’t go there, for fear of being struck off.

One major problem in today’s blinkered reality is that, if you don’t ‘affirm’ a patient’s claim to be transgender, you can run the risk of being accused of practising ‘conversion therapy’.

Conversion therapy is the practice of trying to convince a homosexual person that they are really straight. It’s abhorrent, and is rightly banned. Now, powerful bodies including the NHS and major counselling organisations have signed a Memorandum of Understanding – an agreement on how to practise – which extends the definition of conversion therapy to cover patients who might be transgender.

Less stress this, if you are trans, you will not get appropriate and equal mental health support BECAUSE you are trans and HCPs are scared to ask important questions they would explore with other patients because they are too afraid to due to the culture trans advocates have created.

Let me repeat that. Trans advocacy has made mental health care for trans people worse because of its militancy

If life is to improve for trans people, then the culture we have got into, needs to change. Culture being forced by the very people supposedly working for trans people.

This is what some trans sexuals have identified as an issue, but are not being taken seriously too.

It's an utter travesty.

OP posts:
Please
or
to access all these features

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2018 09:23

Slightly off the point, but interesting that the Mail on Sunday chose to give over its front page to this in the middle of the Brexit crisis

Thats an entirely different story. The Mail is in the process of changing editorial line on Brexit. (ironically and surprisingly the mail on Sunday has always been pro remain in its editorial! Yes really) Its readers are not necessarily happy about this. There's been quite a bit of this on twitter over the weekend with the Telegraph selling itself as the only true leave newspaper left. It therefore doesn't surprise me that the Mail has shyed away from Brexit on the front page. It's a bit of a sensitive issue atm for the paper.

I would not read too much into Brexit being off the front page for that reason

OP posts:
Please
or
to access all these features

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/11/2018 09:36

Mimmymum's wise words

I snarked a little at who they tagged into their photo. Who do they think they are? Hmm

Please
or
to access all these features

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Please
or
to access all these features

scepticalwoman · 18/11/2018 09:44

Just a comment about safeguarding and parents.
If a school doesn't share this information with parents then they remove the parent's ability to safeguard their own child. And the school are also removing the parent's rights / responsibilities which they are not competent to do. Only the courts can remove this, not schools.
If a teacher follows trans lobby groups guidelines and keeps a child's disclosures about being trans confidential - ie not sharing with pastoral / safeguarding leads in the school - then the teacher is breaching the school's safeguarding guidelines.
All of this leaves a vulnerable child isolated from support and even more vulnerable to grooming / abuse / harm

Please
or
to access all these features

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 09:45

Normal whistleblowing procedure is to report within the system. The entire point with this story is that it has become impossible to do so. Like was the case with North Staffs.

This is a really important point to take in. Anyone who cares to research further should look at Lisa Muggeridge's video on institutional grooming. This has happened here and whistleblowers can no longer use internal procedures to report concerns.

Please
or
to access all these features

Chosennone · 18/11/2018 09:45

I teach in a rural comprehensive with a mixed cohort. Predominately white but a range of middle and working class kids. We have recently had a couple of kids identifying with trans who receive counselling and what seems to be 'watch and wait'. They are in a similar friendship group and apparently have a name friend who secretly identifies as female. There is one other child in the year below that I'm aware of.

However, when the new Year 7s arrived in September there are a cluster for females who identify and present as males. School are aware and are not intervening except where anxiety is involved.

Please
or
to access all these features

scepticalwoman · 18/11/2018 09:46

As LangCleg said Grin

Please
or
to access all these features

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 09:49

If a school doesn't share this information with parents then they remove the parent's ability to safeguard their own child. And the school are also removing the parent's rights / responsibilities which they are not competent to do. Only the courts can remove this, not schools.
If a teacher follows trans lobby groups guidelines and keeps a child's disclosures about being trans confidential - ie not sharing with pastoral / safeguarding leads in the school - then the teacher is breaching the school's safeguarding guidelines.
ll of this leaves a vulnerable child isolated from support and even more vulnerable to grooming / abuse / harm

Great post.

Remember everyone: only the family courts can remove PR (legal parental responsibility) and even then, PR would be given to the Local Authority and not the school.

Please
or
to access all these features

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 09:52

Mimmymum's wise words... I snarked a little at who they tagged into their photo. Who do they think they are?

There are a number of parents, volunteers, trustees and people employed by Mermaids Charity (as is the case with other trans rights lobbying groups, organisations and charities) who believe they are omnipotent.

In fairness, this belief has been formed/ supported by the unquestioning backing they have had from many influential, powerful people and public bodies.

Please
or
to access all these features

spannablue · 18/11/2018 09:54

The DM is a hate filled rag. You think they care about women, working class people, autistic people, or LGBT people? Anyone who's ever had anything to do with them would know they are driven by ££ and nothing else. This is behind all their racist, anti immigration, pro Tory wind-up merchant 'journalism'.

If I was part of a movement and the DM was backing my p.o.v. I'd be worried. Very worried.

Please
or
to access all these features
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Sign up to continue reading

Mumsnet's better when you're logged in. You can customise your experience and access way more features like messaging, watch and hide threads, voting and much more.

Already signed up?