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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Julia Long has just been brilliant on LBC

166 replies

ToeToToe · 21/08/2018 09:23

www.lbc.co.uk/london/radio/player/

You should be able to listen again here. 9am. There's a discussion going on now.

Talking about the penis stickers, and single sex spaces.

The trans-activist they on says that we should make space for all kinds of women: including "angry" women.

Yes, now there are women, angry women and trans women.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
AncientLights · 21/08/2018 10:25

Every time transwomen open their mouths they prove they are male. Like telling us what we can/can't talk about. And these 'types' of women: they've just broadened it out from the old dichotomy of good girls & bad girls, virgin & whore.

ToeToToe · 21/08/2018 10:26

www.lbc.co.uk/london/radio/aod/?episodeId=1d5f412d-7283-46b3-826f-103e23567dc1

Here you go fidgetspinner - fast forward to 2:05 ish.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 10:32

Incident reported last week (Scotland) two girls aged 10 & 12 were sexually assaulted in women's supermarket toilets by 17yr old who seems likely male & does not identify as a man:

It raises serious safeguarding concerns for young girls:

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/702003/fife-teen-on-sex-offenders-register-after-supermarket-child-attacks/

The article linked above describes how two young girls (aged 10 & 12) were sexually assaulted by a 17yr old in women's toilets in supermarkets. The article uses gender neutral desciptors and pronoun for the attacker. It also records direct speech describing them as looking and sounding 'male/man'

It seems likely that the attacker was male-born but does not identify as a man. As they are 17, they could not have a GRC.

The father of one girl had waited outside (as is common)

There has only been (I think) this one article and the court is adjourned pending pre-sentence reports.

Additionally the attacker had social care involvement and had gone to the supermarket with a carer.

Its a really serious and significant case & as social care are involved there will likely be a serious case review :
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329936-teen-films-girl-in-toilet

safetycomes1st · 21/08/2018 10:36

"Snakes will be snakes" sigh

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 10:51

I haven't listened yet, but it seems there's been a reiteration of the different types of women argument eg royal women, poor women, trans women but all women though different life experiences?

cf Jane Fae on Jeremy Vine May 2018 ('the Queen and a poor women have nothing in common'):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3256772-Guess-how-I-got-suspended-from-the-Labour-Party

also Sue Pascoe (Channel 4 inclusion advisor) who describes herself as a "woman with a trans past"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3331095-Channel-4-appoints-a-new-advisor-on-inclusion

Emily Brothers a 'woman with trans experience' Radio 4 Today with Lucy Masood March 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3200310-Radio-4-now

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 10:53

I hope TRAs use the club promoter more, they will peak the nation.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 21/08/2018 10:53

After much arsing around with the LBC player I finally got to hear it.

Brava Julia Long!

So satisfying to hear it. Going back in to hear from the callers.

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 10:55

What time does the relevant dialogue happen the second time?

natriumarm · 21/08/2018 11:00

So good you were Julia Long! Thank you for speaking sanity to this obsession to protect men's feelings. Poor men. They lose.

vaginafetishist · 21/08/2018 11:05

Why is Julia so effective in exposing tra rhetoric and tactics? She doesn't start by apologetically stating that she supports trans rights and the ability of everyone to identify as they wish.

She keeps the focus on women, their rights and reality as we all understand it.

vaginafetishist · 21/08/2018 11:06

More Julia, she explains things in a way everyone will understand.

silentcrow · 21/08/2018 11:09

If anyone's having trouble with the "listen again" link, Anne Ruzylo has put it on SoundCloud here: m.soundcloud.com/anne-ruzylo/julia-long-on-lbc-21-08-18

Julia was great - clear, articulate, and relentlessly centring women. Are you listening, Womens Hour? This is what we need you to do to stand up for ACTUAL WOMEN.

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 11:11

Why is Julia so effective in exposing tra rhetoric and tactics? She doesn't start by apologetically stating that she supports trans rights and the ability of everyone to identify as they wish.

She keeps the focus on women, their rights and reality as we all understand it.

Julia speaks calmly with humour, not the angry woman the TRA club promoter wants the feminist to sound like.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 21/08/2018 11:16

I think she is amazing. The warm sense of humour in the tone of her voice works wonders to disarm people, but as you say, vaginafetishist, she keeps the focus on women and girls, doesn't concede or compromise and knows her stuff so she can listen properly and deliver key facts at just the right moment.
Masterful stuff right there.

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 11:20

Julia and certainly has a radio voice, I suggest other feminists - if approached - pass on radio to Julia.

FloralBunting · 21/08/2018 11:20

I particularly enjoyed Vicky's sad story about their disabled relative, who is frankly just grateful to get any care at all, never mind being able to decide the sex of who gives that care.

And Ferrari's response that this was sad, but didn't address the reality of women (and men!) being allowed to decide the sex of their HCP or person giving intimate care.

What was happening there was a trans person attempting to use an oppression hierarchy, and doing the usual piggy backing on someone else's issue.

Is it wrong that disabled people struggle to get the care they need? Yes. Does it have anything to do with women being forced to accept people with penises providing intimate care? None at all.

What our trans contributor was attempting to do was say "Women should shut up and be grateful for whatever they can get and not assert their rights and personal comfort preferences" and Ferrari wasn't having a bar of it.

I'm really grateful for Dr Julia Long's stellar performance there, but I wanted to highlight the way Vicky was trying to interact with the male presenter - the tactics are fascinating and it was great to have someone see right through it.

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 11:22

Important case reported December 2017

'NHS trust apologises to woman after ‘nurse with stubble and deep voice’ tried to take smear test'
(extracts)
"The NHS has apologised to a woman who was left “embarrassed and distressed” after a nurse with stubble and a deep voice was going to carry out her cervical smear test at hospital. The woman requested a female NHS nurse to perform the intimate procedure but was dismayed when a staff member with “an obviously male appearance” greeted her. When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

The woman declined to go ahead with the examination – given to women aged 25 to 49 every three years and every five years for women aged 50 to 64 – and complained about her treatment. She stressed her complaint was not about the nurse’s appearance or gender status." (continues)

“[It was] weird where somebody says to you: ‘My gender is not male’ and you think: ‘Well, what does that even mean? You are clearly a man’, the woman told the Sunday Times. “[The nurse] had an obviously male appearance . . . close-cropped hair, a male facial appearance and voice, large number of tattoos and facial stubble.” The patient said it was “bad enough for a fortysomething mother”, but the effect of such an incident on her 17-year-old daughter would have been much worse." (continues)

"However, under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”.

James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, said self-certification would create many similar situations arising in the future.

“Politicians have not thought through all the implications of allowing self-certification,” he said." (continues)

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

Lottapianos · 21/08/2018 11:26

'I particularly enjoyed Vicky's sad story about their disabled relative, who is frankly just grateful to get any care at all'

Same here! 'Just stop whining, women, and be grateful for how good you have it'. Hmm

Ferrari wasted no time shutting that crap down either Grin

Totally agree that Julia sounds like a normal, reasonable person, and avoids the 'angry feminist' stereotype, although of course, there's plenty to be angry about....

BraveAndStunning · 21/08/2018 11:27

Julia, you were brilliant! Well done, thank you and please do more interviews.

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 11:27

What was happening there was a trans person attempting to use an oppression hierarchy, and doing the usual piggy backing on someone else's issue.

This is something I note the LBC woman (Julia?) who interviewed Madigan asking if they self Id as a table and Nick Robinson was skilled at too.

Victoria Derbyshire and This morning staff are very lacking in those skills, the lack of critical thinking skills and ego gets in the way.

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 11:39

This is something I note the LBC woman (Julia?) who interviewed Madigan asking if they self Id as a table and Nick Robinson was skilled at too

Julia Hartley Brewer.... she also managed India Willoughby's attempt to control the narrative better than daytime TV presenters.

Interview with Justine Roberts and IW after Mumsnet announcement that it had been targetted by TRAs but would try to uphold opportunity for free civil speech:

Dr Nic Williams discusses India Willoughby's control of interviews:
fairplayforwomen.com/thank-india-w-showing-us-women-perceive-transwomen-still-male/

recent threads:
This Morning
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3302512-India-Willoughby-has-had-facial-feminisation-surgery

Loose Women:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3329142-IW-on-Loose-Women

YesSirCowBoy · 21/08/2018 11:42

Thank you.

Destinysdaughter · 21/08/2018 11:43

Nick Ferrari was brilliant too. Just not allowing Vicky to get away with stuff. Just goes to show how their arguments don’t hold water when they are properly debated. Thanks so much for posting this OP, really cheered me up!

R0wantrees · 21/08/2018 11:43

Nick Robinson was skilled at too.

His extended interview with Paris Lees is worth listening to (link within thread below):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3270344-Paris-Lees-interviewed-by-Nick-Robinson-on-Radio-4-now-on

It was strikingly different to Jeremy Vine's interview with Paris Lees:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295715-Paris-Lees-on-What-makes-us-human-R2-Jeremy-Vine

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/08/2018 11:43

Where do 'pissed off women' or 'irritated women' fit?