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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby has had facial feminisation surgery

163 replies

gendercritter · 10/07/2018 14:46

Apparently in response to online trolls.

And do you know what, for the first time I feel sad for India. It looks like brutal surgery. India said India had it done to be accepted as a female but that is never truly going to happen, if people are being honest.

The thing that struck me in CBB when India was jabbing India's finger at the woman present and yelling 'I am a woman' was how male India looked. There was a shot taken from behind and I read what I saw as a man with a ponytail. There was absolutely no getting away from the fact you were seeing a male physique.

I am still capable of feeling lots of other things for this individual alongside sadness but I do hate to think of people being so ill at ease with themselves.

OP posts:
gendercritter · 10/07/2018 14:47

Oh, I read this in the Mail. Sorry.

The few comments so far are saying they don't see a difference. I do, but it's interesting that the journalist hasn't described the reality of the surgery in any detail.

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · 10/07/2018 14:48

I feel for anyone who goes through unnecessary surgery to change their appearance after being bullied.

Timefortea99 · 10/07/2018 14:50

India was on This Morning today. Looks fresher but facially the same. Didn't Stick around for the interview.

Ilikelotsofthinngs · 10/07/2018 14:53

She was on 'this morning' with Holly and phil.
Could definitely see the difference and she did say there is still some swelling.
She had it as a result of trolling, and all I could think was welcome to being a woman in the public eye. It's not unusual to be harshly judged and treated badly.
No that it's OK of course, nobody should be treated like that and I wonder about the people who do it.
And like you say, it's not just the face, it's usually the stance or the socialisation that gives it away.

CoolCarrie · 10/07/2018 14:56

India Willoughby had surgery because India Willoughy wanted it, nothing to do with trolls. Monroe B started it and now India has joined in. At least they both had their ops overseas, not on the NHS.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 14:58

I wonder who the trolls were? India blocks out anyone with GC views using 'blockers' so it can't just be people saying they don't believe you can change sex. Maybe big brother fans or something.

India has already had radical surgery to deal with the body dismorphia so it doesn't surprise me that more surgery followed.
It suits the old victim business I think to say "the bullies made me do it!". If it were someone else I probably wouldn't be skeptical.

MrsJayy · 10/07/2018 15:01

India clearly used BB money on surgery nothing to do with bullying . Aggresion on big brother poking other women demanding men fancied India was bullying.

noeffingidea · 10/07/2018 15:01

Hopefully India is happy with the results.
Having plastic surgery myself is not something I could ever get my head round, but it's the individuals choice of course.

Gileswithachainsaw · 10/07/2018 15:02

This is just a way of blaming people for what actually proves that surgery doesn't do anything to help their dysmorphia and they always have to find some where to go surgery/alteration wise.

TerfsUp · 10/07/2018 15:02

India did so because India wanted to do so.

MrsJayy · 10/07/2018 15:03

If somebody has body dysmorphia then they might never be happy with how they look regardless of surgery which is a real shame.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/07/2018 15:05

Curious how much some will try and erase their past - quite deluded imo

BettyDuMonde · 10/07/2018 15:06

It makes me sad that people will subject themselves to such brutalism, especially in pursuit of the impossible.

Everyone knows that IW is trans, they have transitioned in the public eye. This just makes IW a transperson who has had brutal surgery.

SpareRibFem · 10/07/2018 15:10

That's sad. I imagine that's quite gruelling surgery

But no amount of surgery can do the impossible.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 15:12

India Willoughby is an adult and so of course has the right to have any plastic surgery that she is able to afford.

The context of this being due to 'online trolls' is worth considering and also the effects of the media platform that India has in sharing her opinions.

This piece was written by India for Pink News 24th April 2018, shortly after the interview with India, Justine Roberts and Julia Hartley-Brewer on LBC. The context for the interview being that Justine Roberts had gone public on the pressures being exerted by TRAs to shut down discussion here and that MN intended to continue to try to support free civil discussion.

India Willoughby: Britain’s rampant transphobia has me worried for my life

(article in full)
"We’re heading for a modern day Stonewall riot – unless the government and media clamp down on what has become rampant transphobia.

Transgender people are being bullied and hounded like never before – and we need to be very careful about where all this unfettered hate dressed up as “free speech” is going.

The Sunday Times, Daily Mail and – wait for it – Mumsnet – are hounding trans women in the same way Hitler went about stigmatising Jewish people.

Seriously. That’s no exaggeration.

The tabloids are no surprise, but Mumsnet?

Yeah, what is supposed to be a family-friendly parenting site has it’s claws out for the trans community.

And it all feels very orchestrated.

Every Sunday, regular as clockwork, I wake up to tabloid tales warning that society as we know it will end if trans women are further accommodated into normal society. Deviant, dirty sex monsters. Mentally-ill, deluded and dangerous. A cult leading youngsters astray. It’s like being back in the 1970s with the News of the World.

Even trans kids are seen as fair game. Radio hosts warning of assaults and unwanted pregnancies because trans girls have been allowed into the Girl Guides.

What’s the problem? Girls have been in the Scouts since 1991 and the world is still spinning.

And now we have groups of hardliners who will never accept trans women on any level, travelling the country, fanning the flames of hate.

Last year, I attended an event with lots of other LGBT people at Downing Street, where Theresa May promised to make the lives of trans people safer and easier, with the implementation of a new Gender Recognition Act. A key point of which will be allowing trans people to legally self-identify as a man or woman, without jumping through numerous bureaucratic hoops.

I totally get why many women might have concerns about this, given there have been so many ridiculous over-the-top debates where the scenario of sex-offender in a dress is trotted out.

It just doesn’t bear up to scrutiny though. Honestly. Self-identification in no way incentivises someone to commit a sex offence. It doesn’t make it easier or more likely.

Waving a piece of paper or shouting “I’m a woman” is not going to buy any leniency from the police or courts.

I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria.

Portugal, Ireland, Norway, Columbia, Malta, Belgium, Denmark and Argentina have or are adopting the same legislation – and there have been no spikes is assaults.

Women’s areas will not become dangerous places when the Gender Recognition Act is passed.

At our garden party, Mrs May admitted her party’s reputation on LGBT matters was poor, but promised that was going to change.

We all clinked glasses, ate cucumber sandwiches and had our photo taken with the PM.

Nothing has happened.

The act has stalled through pressure from hardline feminist groups, who see all trans women as potential rapists in dresses.

Cabinet minister Lis Truss has now tweeted her support for Mumsnet, despite the site hosting rampant transphobia. She needs hauling in to the PM’s office – and Theresa May needs to keep her promise about protecting trans people.

And where’s Amber Rudd, the government’s Women’s and Equalities Minister, in this? What has she got to say about about this persecution of a tiny group of women? The silence is deafening.

I defy anyone to visit Mumsnet right now, look up transgender, and tell me that the vicious and mocking threads about trans people would be allowed about any other demographic. It’s the stuff of pitchforks and lanterns. The same rhetoric about race, religion on sexuality would lead to prosecutions and official condemnation.

Mumsnet CEO Justine Roberts squeals that trans people highlighting the content – including threads which out trans people – to some of the site’s main advertisers is out of order. She describes it as an attack on free speech. This might be a shock to Justine, but trans people have free speech, too.

There’s even a debate about introducing a new trans Section 28, clamping down on educating the public about what transgender is.

Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.

As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution

Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.”

And I say so-called “feminists” quite deliberately. It’s the point which is paralysing anyone doing anything about the situation. Because these radical groups are hiding under the “feminist” banner, Government and other institutions are reluctant to question them. They don’t want to be perceived as attacking “women’s rights.”

But this isn’t a them-and-us argument which pitches trans women against other women. We are women who make up a tiny one percent of the population. The chances are you don’t even know any of us.

All we want to do is use the appropriate bathroom or changing area, and get on with our lives.

Which is where I would ask all women who think of themselves as feminists, or equal rights supporters, to stand alongside trans women at the moment.

There are grandmothers, mothers, sisters and aunts out there who know the truth that their trans relatives are not serial sex offenders, or a threat to society.

They need to speak up among their own friends. Post online. Give a different perspective on trans people."

I would encourage people to consider their comments carefully

thewitchofwentworth · 10/07/2018 15:15

If, as India suggests, we are heading for a new Stonewall riot, the trans activists will be playing the role of the police.

user838383 · 10/07/2018 15:19

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user838383 · 10/07/2018 15:21

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R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 15:22

Shortly after the interview, India (as seen in the article) publically announced her change of opinion about self-id.

It was interesting which Twitter TRAs she also seemed to align with, retweet etc etc.

user838383 · 10/07/2018 15:25

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SentimentalGift · 10/07/2018 15:25

If India is pleased with the results, then go be happy India, I genuinely mean that.

There was a shot taken from behind and I read what I saw as a man with a ponytail.

The surgeon is happy to take the money.

I feel sad for people that are very unhappy with their body.

The way an XY body is put together and it's motion, along with the size of head and smells it omits can't be changed.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 15:27

I make sure I don't feel sorry for India. My natural compassionate instincts need suppressing when it comes to manipulative delusional narcs.

Your pity is your weakness and it will be used against you.

LangCleg · 10/07/2018 15:32

I don't feel sorry for India. Anyone who throws narc rage over an eighty-year-old woman because she did not genuflect sufficiently is unlikely to excite my sympathy. And now it seems as though that rage paid for cosmetic surgery, I'm even less inclined to think kindly of India. Got enough clicks and outrage to afford it by abusing an octogenarian? Charming.

user838383 · 10/07/2018 15:32

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SentimentalGift · 10/07/2018 15:36

Do the heads still grow at the same rate when XY children are given puberty blockers as other XY children?
Do the bones grow slower or XY children?
Does their shoulder bones reduce in size and their pelvis grow larger?

Do the heads grow larger in XX children on puberty blockers than XX children not on the medication?
Do their bones and muscles grow larger than other XX children?
Do their shoulders grow larger and does the pelvis reduce in size?