Misgendering.

[FloralBunting]

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

To a narcissist, being invalidated is as bad as death.

This might be of interest;
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

1. Gaslighting.
2. Projection.
3. Nonsensical conversations from hell.
4. Blanket statements and generalizations.
5. Deliberately misrepresenting your thoughts and feelings to the point of absurdity.
6. Nitpicking and moving the goal posts.
7. Changing the subject to evade accountability.
8. Covert and overt threats.
9. Name-calling.

10. Destructive conditioning. 11. Smear campaigns and stalking. 12. Love-bombing and devaluation. 13. Preemptive defense. 14. Triangulation. 15. Bait and feign innocence. 16. Boundary testing and hoovering. 17. Aggressive jabs disguised as jokes. 18. Condescending sarcasm and patronizing tone. 19. Shaming. 20. Control.

Traditionally deliberately misgendering people in the classic sense is done to put people down. When you call men women you're devaluing their status - as men (superior) When you call women men you are pointing out they're not performing femininity properly.

I can understand how people would then think that when people misgender trans people the intention is the same - to belittle - rather than because they genuinely didn't know and grammar functions on a subconscious level

It is always all about obedience training.

misgendering is often not done deliberately and we can often tell that some will ignore it or not bother correcting usually if it is only in passing. if I'm going to see the person quite a bit I usually politely correct them and that's it they don't do it again. People that do it with intent and I have had this at work it is used to undermine the point I am making if it is with other people someone else will usually correct them or use the correct pronouns this as only ever happened a few times but the tone is very notably different. the worst time I have eclver had was when I was selling something and could not leave and the person continued even when corrected probably because they could as we could not leave this again I feel was about power at the end I was devistated and blamed myself for not standing up to him.
if poeple are doing it on here again it usually a mistake or a. one off or they are deliberately doing so to make a point there is again a diffence. but you tend to do it to people who are not on here and not the trans poeple that are which shows people do understand that it would been seen as personally trying to undermine them.

It is always all about obedience training.

This! And can be seen to be working on the unsuspecting woke, young adults, fanned by those who have something to gain by silencing common sense

UpstartCrow

also having worked with people who Truely have narcissistic personality disorder and the damage that this can do to both them and those around them I find your comparisons to trans people make no sense. yes there are trans people with narcissistic personality trates but the too things are not linked. I'm sure you will disagree but blanket use of terms to sum up communities of people is never a good approach.

I’m torn on this. I think people should have the names and pronouns they choose, and deliberately not using them is “going low” to quote the Divine Mrs M. But it is all part of the trans smokescreen. Mingendering=denying my existence because the person with those pronouns doesn’t exist any more=wanting to kill the person I am now=literal violence= death threats.

I’m starting to wonder to what extent the idea that misgendering causes actual harm has been deliberately and very cynically cultivated.

It’s also a feature of an abusive relationship that there are things that are practically impossible to get right all the time so you are always on the back foot.

I think because it's easy to avoid? If you don't know if someone's a boy or girl then ask their name instead of saying sir/miss? I knew a girl called Morgan... No idea if she was a boy or girl for a whole year before she told us she was transitioning from man to woman! No one asked because it seemed rude to ask someone what gender they are! As a woman I would be upset if someone thought I was a man... Yes it's 2018 and it shouldn't matter bla bla bla but I like to think I look like a girl!

It is always all about obedience training.

What other reason could there be for someone who is obviously male, and presenting as male, requiring 'they' for instance. Its absolutely a power trip and utterly narcissistic.

Masons won't mind being misgendered when they're called Brother, when they transition.

This isn't just about using the she / her pronouns for a transwoman or he /him for a transman. Pronouns aren't binary, there are a groing number of them.

Jess Bradley identifies as a non-binary transwoman. She also believes 'there is no such thing as a real woman'.

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"
Jess Bradley, 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

What other reason could there be for someone who is obviously male, and presenting as male, requiring 'they' for instance. Its absolutely a power trip and utterly narcissistic.

This has been a key issue for both Edward Lord and Gregor Murray both of whom identify as non binary and have preferred pronouns they/them.

Both hold / held significant public roles & have been in the national press recently:

theads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332582-Trans-councillor-leaves-roles-after-threats-to-life

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

Social behaviours are designed to reduce tension within social groups, and to increase social cohesion.
We have greeting and naming conventions so we can politely address people, even when they are strangers. Its a social contract. The normal, everyday social greeting is not abusive. It is the opposite of abusive.

One group demands we break greeting and naming conventions, and instead introduce a system that uses a power dynamic.

It's worth cross-referencing this thread, too: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334268-the-handmaid-s-tale-and-language

Enforcing language change is a deliberate manipulation tactic. Changing pronoun rules in the way that TRAs do is part of that.

Please be clear I'm pointing at TRAs here - people who genuinely go through the process seem to pick their gendered pronoun to match their final modification and stick with it without all this "literal violence" stuff.

extended article 2015:
'Beyond 'he' and 'she': The rise of non-binary pronouns'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34901704

We have greeting and naming conventions so we can politely address people, even when they are strangers. Its a social contract. The normal, everyday social greeting is not abusive. It is the opposite of abusive.

One group demands we break greeting and naming conventions, and instead introduce a system that uses a power dynamic

The potential consequences of this need serious consideration,

One group demands we break greeting and naming conventions, and instead introduce a system that uses a power dynamic.

This. It is pernicious as well as anti-feminist to make "misgendering" a social crime because it puts all the power into one party's hands. Like everything else of a hyper-individualist nature, dominance defaults to whoever has the structural power. Everything about this movement is regressive, LARPing as transgressive, and that includes "misgendering".

Maria Maclachlan instructed to call T Wolf by preferred pronouns (she /her) in court. Wolf was convicted of assault.

Maria Maclachlan's experience of court:
(extract)
"My testimony
Obviously, I was the main witness for the prosecution. What made the headlines after the first day was that District Judge Kenneth Grant told me I had to pretend Wolf is a woman and call him ‘she’. While I’ve often found it quite easy to forget the sex of ordinary, decent, trans folk, I find it impossible to think of Wolf as any kind of woman" (continues)
www.peaktrans.org/blog-the-ostensible-trial-of-tara-wolf-part-1/

Thing is, I have several people close to me that have been constantly "misgendered" for years and years, and neither of them could give a single shiny shit. It hasn't invalidated their identities, it hasn't rocked their sense of self, it hasn't caused them any grief at all. It hasn't caused them to change their gender presentation in order to have a better chance at being correctly addressed as their biological sex. One is a straight young man, and one is an older lesbian. Both are happy and secure in their identities.

I genuinely wonder that if they had been told, again and again, that it was one of the worst things that could happen to a person, literal violence, then they might have experienced it quite differently. As it happened, they just accepted that is was a thing, no biggie, and moved on.

I genuinely wonder that if they had been told, again and again, that it was one of the worst things that could happen to a person, literal violence, then they might have experienced it quite differently

I have been thinking the same thing. When added to the constant repetition of the probability of self harm, suicide etc it becomes potentially very powerful and dangerous.

The false equivalence around this issue is really difficult. A trans activist can say, with perfect sincerity, that they have received death threats, because they believe misgendering to be anihilation. And then feel perfectly justified in issuing more traditional baseball bat related threats of violence in retaliation.

Current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334268-the-handmaid-s-tale-and-language
Extract from article discussed in OP:
"One of the ways a society oppresses its people quickly is through language. So the handmaids are also given a new vocabulary. They learn to quash the metaphors (“this is your stop”), the slang (“that sucks”), the brands of modern life (“fucking Uber”). The language of their new world is stiff, rote, antiquated, and God-centric. “Blessed be the fruit,” is the common greeting, which elicits the answer, “may the Lord open.” The expected farewell, “Under his eye.” Any expressions of positivity are met with, “Praise be.” When Offred meets the man whose children she’s assigned to bear, he says, “Nice to meet you.” She struggles with how to answer, and her eventual response—”You, too”—is obviously taboo, causing a ripple of discomfort across the room."

Well I suppose if you want to change the world by changing your pronouns, and reconstructing a new world around you, and people refuse to play along, it can be rather enraging, to a certain type of person, i.e., the type of person who would demand this.