Misgendering.

[FloralBunting]

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

Stonewall Primary & Secondary School teacher training courses:

see reference to equality act compliance and use of suicide attempt statistics:

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/get-involved-education/creating-trans-inclusive-school-primary

They appear to be teaching teachers how to teach children to dissociate.

Given Stonewall's stated intention to abolish single sex exemptions from the Equality Act, it would be interesting to know the course content.

see James Kirkup:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html

Stonewall's AN INTRODUCTION TO SUPPORTING LGBT YOUNG PEOPLE: A GUIDE FOR SCHOOLS
(extracts)
TIPS FOR PRIMARY SCHOOLS:
• Coming out Younger pupils may tell you they are lesbian, gay, bisexual or trans differently.
A trans young person may say ‘I feel like a girl’ or ‘I don’t feel like a boy’ rather than use the word ‘trans’. They may come to school wearing clothes not typically associated with their assigned sex. However, any young person might change the way they look or dress for lots of reasons and this alone should not be taken as an indication a young person is trans.

Definition of trans for younger pupils: ‘Babies are given a gender when they are born. Trans is a word that describes people who feel the gender they were given as a baby doesn’t match the gender they feel themselves to be, for example someone who is given the gender ‘boy’ but doesn’t feel that way.’

Toilets and changing rooms A trans young person may wish to use the toilets and changing rooms of their self-identified gender rather than of their assigned sex. Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act. Schools should also support trans young people to use gender neutral facilities or a private space if that is what they prefer. The most important thing is to talk to the young person rather than make assumptions about the facilities they would like to use. "

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/an_introduction_to_supporting_lgbt_young_people_-_a_guide_for_schools_2015.pdf

my name is Miss Tree

But all sorts of people insist on calling me Ms.

I am not Ms, I am Miss.

Should I consider that I have had literal violence and death threats from my credit card company? Not only did they get it wrong, but they couldn't change it because I don't have the paperwork to PROVE that I am a Miss

Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act.

That is an outright lie.

Clairetree1

By chance, I am Ms Tree. I have been Ms Tree since an A level tutor pointed out the anomoly that my male peers title was simply Mr.

Over the years all sorts of people tried to call me Miss and then Mrs! to be honest I have always preferred simply Rowan Trees but social convention being as it is, if others need to use a title I'd choose Ms.

tweet

By chance, I am Ms Tree. I have been Ms Tree since an A level tutor pointed out the anomoly that my male peers title was simply Mr

and I completely understand and respect your right to self identify as Ms! as I self identify as Miss!

The difference being I ( and I am presuming also you) don't scream in the face of anyone who gets it wrong, accuse them of literal violence or threaten to report them to the police...

A trans young person may wish to use the toilets and changing rooms of their self-identified gender rather than of their assigned sex. Schools should make sure that a trans student is supported to do so and be aware that this is a legal requirement under the Equality Act.

That is a violation of safeguarding requirements.
"What school or college staff should do if they have concerns about safeguarding
practices within the school or college
32.
All s
taff and volunteers should feel able to raise concerns about poor or unsafe
practice and potential failures in the school or college’
s safeguarding regime
and
know
that such concerns will be taken seriously by the
senior leadership team
.
33.
Appropriate
whistleblowing procedures
, which are suitably reflected in staff
training and staff behaviour policies,
should be in place for such concer
ns to be raised
with
the school or college’
s senior leadership team
.

34.
Where
a staff member
feels unable to
raise an
issue
with their employer
or feel
s
that their genuine concerns are not being addressed,
other
whistleblowing
channels
may
be open to them
:

•
General guidance can
be found at

• Advice on whistleblowin"

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/550499/Keeping_children_safe_in_education_Part_1.pdf

R0wan I cannot decide whether that Stonewall 'guidance' was written by a not-bright person, or as condescending AF. And note their Freudian: ‘I feel like a girl’ or ‘I don’t feel like a boy’

One problem with the whole 'correct pronouns' thing, is that there are dozens of pronouns to use - there was even some silly guidance about all the variations. How on earth are you meant to guess which are the 'correct pronouns'? And what about the trans/de/re lot like Samantha Kane? Because if one was correctly writing an article that included the two periods of 'presenting male', then the correct pronouns would be 'he/him', and 'she/her' when 'presenting female'. So if it is all about presentation, and the ones that make no effort and someone pronouns on that appearance, it's still wrong.

It is like a massive gaslighting exercise.

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

That's an excellent rundown, Rosemary46!

I thought of another: how many women in the last 100 years have been addressed as "Mrs [husbands firstname] [husbandslastname]"? Did they dissolve, or burst into flames, or did they just simply grind on and get on with that? I had to explain to DS the other day why there was a stone engraved with something like "THIS FOUNDATION STONE WAS LAID BY THE LADY MAYOR, MRS JOHN SMITH, IN 1976" when we were in a museum building. Mrs John Smith (or whoever), even having got to be a mayor, still didn't even bleedin' get her own name.

The difference being I ( and I am presuming also you) don't scream in the face of anyone who gets it wrong, accuse them of literal violence or threaten to report them to the police...

You presume right! Likewise I respect your preferred title. I don't tend to use titles on envelopes etc but this is applied universally.

I do use Ms if I am unsure of a woman's preferred title.

I don't tend to scream in faces (struggling to recall an instance) and on the occasions I have had to call the police, it has been done calmly due the fact that there was an immediate threat or actual violence occuring

DuckingGoodPJs
There's also the issue of how much research must one do. A poster on a recent thread about Edward Lord had looked at their (Edward Lord's) Wiki page which at the time used 'he /him'. Other posters had either seen Lord's Twitter bio or had read an article, possibly from the Times, which included mention of preferred pronouns they/them.

The poster had used the 'he/him' pronouns in good faith. I think Wiki may have been updated now. Do we have to pronoun-fact check and if so where & how frequently?

I bet Ed doesn't use "they" in the Lodge.

I cannot decide whether that Stonewall 'guidance' was written by a not-bright person, or as condescending AF.

IME these two things are definitely not mutually exclusive! The Dunning Kruger effect is strong among trans advocates.

In Maoist China, it meant killing off the older generation to remove political opposition.

It’s of note that the usual intergenerational frictions have ramped up lately, with a lot of antipathy directed towards baby boomers. Some of the ageist discourse post-referendum was shocking.

Rosemary46 very clear examples of how women can be called the wrong name in loads of ways. Excellent.

I am frequently called by an incorrect name as my actual name sounds similar to a common name.
I'm frequently addressed as Mr Stroppy in letters as my first name is one both men and women use.
I do receive the odd letter addressed to Mrs Stroppy-Partners-Surname, especially from elderly relatives.
I have so often been called Mrs when I have always been Ms.
Always. And many of them have been misogynists or old farts making a point.
I've never felt I needed to punch someone, claim 'literal violence' or make a formal complaint. I've never threatened violence, compared my experience to the survivors of abuse, nor sue.
Nor have any women I've known.
Funny that.

see if you can try to imagine this happening all the time as soon as you walkout the door and when you correct them no one listens and they continue to do that, in fact some of them go out of there way to do it. I don't think. misgendering is literally violance and intent is importent people make mistakes and we know. when they do, some poeple use it as power and if that happens all the time to somone it can have a deviating impact on them. if you experienced being called the wrong name occasionally at this level then yes it would be equivalent.

But it's also an exercise of power and control over someone to force them to lie and adhere to a belief system that they don't accept and which is both directly and indirectly damaging to their own interests and rights as a class. Why is it so important that everyone must believe or pretend they do? Why do they care so much? I don't believe in gender identity ideology. No one is going to make me.

Did you read my post Bespin ?

We don’t have to imagine this because it happens to us. Or to a woman we know.

No one thinks it's a hate crime, or literal violence. Or that its ok to punch people who do this.

Why is something a minor irritation when it happens to XX people and a hate crime when it happens to XY people?

Ereshkigal

let me ask you this we are in a meeting at work would you repeatedly misgender me in the meeting even if me or someone else asked you not too. would you continue. if I kept calling you the wrong name or kept telling everyone something that is really important to you but I deliberately got it wrong what would you say to me?

because Rosemary46 it's not equivalent I get called the wrong name all the time and occasionally I I get misgendered accidently. but on one or two occasions I have deliberately been misgendered repeatedly and that as always been around power in the situation its. like I know something about you and I'm going to show. People I know

In a meeting. I would use the pronouns and names you prefer. I believe that to be simple courtesy. I do not think you have the right to accuse me of wanting you dead if I don't. Some people are rude. I think it's rude to refer to me as a girl when I am a woman or as Mrs when I am a Ms. But I do not think I ha r the right to punch someone who does it or call for them to lose their job.