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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Misgendering.

263 replies

FloralBunting · 13/08/2018 00:46

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

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Ereshkigal · 19/08/2018 14:03

I'm not going to waste any more time on sea lioning.

HotRocker · 19/08/2018 14:08

Nope, still haven’t got a clue what you’re getting at. Still looks the same to me, do as we say or else. For example
Transwomen are biological women
No transwomen are biologically male
Die in a fire TERF SCUM!

Gronky · 19/08/2018 14:13

In that case, it seems there's something one of us is missing here. Thank you for the discussion.

Datun · 19/08/2018 15:12

gronky

What about my example of pronoun usage for someone who gets turned on by it?

Gronky · 19/08/2018 15:19

Datun, I'd like to read the exact definition from the source (I couldn't find anything on their site that mentions the definition of transgender and arousal but I'm not great with Google) but, assuming your description is accurate, if they openly announced it then surely it would constitute sexual harassment and, if they didn't, what is the practical difference between that and someone who's sexually aroused by being addressed by conventional, biologically directed pronouns? How would it be policed?

LangCleg · 19/08/2018 15:48

How would it be policed?

Have you accidentally stumbled across an actual feminist argument?!

VickyEadie · 19/08/2018 15:59

How would it be policed?

There it is!

R0wantrees · 19/08/2018 16:10

Gronky
you said upthread that you weren't especially expert in transgender matters.

I can recommend this book by Dr Az Hakeem (who is)

TRANS: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria (Pulling the Trigger) published 2018.

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B079NHQ5H5/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

He has written the introductory chapters and explains the differences between people who are transgender including those that Datun likely refers to. Its very accessible and is intended for everyone.

Also in pictures the Stonewall umbrella for reference.

Misgendering.
Misgendering.
Misgendering.
LangCleg · 19/08/2018 16:10

There it is!

Did a light just switch on?!

Gronky · 19/08/2018 16:16

Thank you very much for that link. Looking at the umbrella, I can't see where it mentions people aroused by being treated as the opposite gender (but presumably still identifying as their biological gender).

R0wantrees · 19/08/2018 16:45

I also recommended the book for this reason.

SingeBuggerCack · 19/08/2018 17:24

I don't believe we are living in a gold age free from abuse but I do believe that things are better now than they were. I can remember being openly asked about my intentions regarding pregnancy. I also acknowledge that it's possible that, because I'm an older, less attractive 'target' I now experience less abuse.

In a lot of ways I think things are getting worse, not better. Do you think discrimination is somehow better because it’s now happening on the quiet rather than openly?

www.openaccessgovernment.org/bosses-discriminate-against-women-in-fear-of-them-becoming-pregnant/47905/

I can think of two recent cases where a woman has died as a result of violent sex games, supposedly ‘consensual’, but that’s the word of the people who killed them. Likely just the tip of the iceberg. Violent porn is rife on the internet, and it’s worrying that certain TRAs, who are vocal about eroding women’s boundaries, are steeped in it. Again, NAMALT and NATALT, but the fact that I even have to state that is telling in itself.

Meanwhile in South Korea, women have marched in protest over spy cam ‘porn’, and self-harm in teenage girls has doubled over the last 20 years.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-harming-by-teenage-girls-doubles-in-20-years-x2vbzm87m

Better? Really?

SingeBuggerCack · 19/08/2018 17:31

Meanwhile in South Korea, women have marched in protest over spy cam ‘porn’, and self-harm in teenage girls has doubled over the last 20 years.

Damn it, worded that badly. The self-harm increase among teenage girls relates to the U.K., not South Korea.

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