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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Misgendering.

263 replies

FloralBunting · 13/08/2018 00:46

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

OP posts:
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JellySlice · 15/08/2018 19:22

this is totally about if you want to follow social excepted current conventions on how people are addressed

Yes, misgendering is definitely excepted (ie taken exception to, objected to) by most people. Society in general expects that masculine pronouns be used for male-bodied people, and feminine pronouns be used for female-bodied people.

If excepted is a typo for accepted, the same applies: society in general expects that masculine pronouns be used for male-bodied people, and feminine pronouns be used for female-bodied people.

Albadross · 15/08/2018 19:41

A few years ago I was sent my polling card that had me down as 'Mr'. I thought nothing of it but when I turned up on the day I was prevented from voting. How would that work with gender fluidity or non-binary? Are those rules just gone now or is it only women who are punished for someone else misgendering them?

UpstartCrow · 15/08/2018 19:42

This is not an issue of free speech;

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/13/lesbians-excluded-vancouver-dyke-march-name-inclusivity/

Clairetree1 · 15/08/2018 19:45

I am a biology teacher.

how long will it be before I face losing my job for stating scientifically accurate biological facts?

I promise you, I still won't agree to lie.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 21:37

Good for you all, I truly support you in your right to do this, I believe you have the right to see us as you do, and if you do I hope you truly stand by that and follow through with your actions. but if you don't then that's fine too we all have a limit to our beliefs and its really not worth losing your job over this but I respect if you were willing to do that.

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 21:41

thebewilderness

this as been my lived experience of it being the norm for well over a decade. would you say all those people I have meet and worked with have been forced to see me in a certain way or treat me as such. I think the number of people out of the thousands I have meet have been like that is very small.

thebewilderness · 15/08/2018 21:49

We all know that males and femaless are treated differently by society in general, as this thread illustrates.

Bespin · 15/08/2018 21:50

thebewilderness

I'm not even sure what that means.

Ereshkigal · 15/08/2018 21:51

Thanks Upstart, a great Feminist Current article with some excellent comments. Going to post it to my Cotton Ceiling evidence thread as it has some good examples.

Charliethefeminist · 15/08/2018 21:54

Bespin you have picked a side which is anti woman. We know gloating about trans activist bullying when we see it.

hipsterfun · 15/08/2018 22:11

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

Charming.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 15/08/2018 22:19

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world and to people and are willing to defend that and take the social consequences of that then I hope it is worth it to you.

I wonder what the 'social consequences' Hmm will be for women speaking the truth?

Who will decide what these 'social consequences' will be and when they will be implemented?

thebewilderness · 15/08/2018 22:46

The immediate consequences for women and girls who refuse to submit appears to be assault and battery.

Clairetree1 · 15/08/2018 22:53

if you are willing to do what you say on here in the real world

what do you mean "if I am willing"? you make it sound as if it is a choice.

I am a teacher, my life's work is to explain the truth to children.

JellySlice · 16/08/2018 00:07

thebewilderness: We all know that males and femaless are treated differently by society in general...

Bespin: I'm not even sure what that means.

LOL
How can Bespin possibly be trans if they haven't noticed that men and women are treated differently? So nothing changed after 'transitioning'?

thebewilderness · 16/08/2018 00:17

JellySlice

That happens a lot here.

Italiangreyhound · 16/08/2018 11:04

I wonder how significant this issue of misgrndering is for either 'side'. Maybe we are focussing on the wrong aspect.

I know in this debate some women are very scared of self id (I know I am), but I understand some trans people are scared too.

Ironically, it is toxic males who are causing many of the issues so actually if we could come together to fight toxic masculinity we might actually get somewhere.

Many of is have said on mumsmet in various places if we think if someone is a genuine trans person (not a sTAR, a person in good faith), we would use the requested pronouns.

I think it is possible to not use pronouns. To avoid use of them altogether. I don't think the law can mandate use of them.

The only time this (not using a pronoun) was an issue reported on the media (that I know of) was the school teacher who refused to call a female pupil 'he'.

I felt the issue against him was very wrong because children cannot legally change gender. So that was forced self id. I don't know how that worked out. He was a Christian and I think that probably went against him too.

But aside from that most cases seem to be using the pronoun someone has rejected. I can easily see that for a trans person that could feel like bullying.

Ereshkigal · 16/08/2018 11:09

I think it is possible to not use pronouns. To avoid use of them altogether. I don't think the law can mandate use of them.

I don't think you would get away with this, Italian, in the workplace. It's not about the letter of the law.

Italiangreyhound · 16/08/2018 12:18

I would imagine in the work place pronouns are actually most commonly used in terms of I and you and they. I don't know that it is getting away with anything, but I do see your point.

Personally, in a workplace situation I don't think I'd have an issue. It's situations like male prisoners in female prisons that I would find impossible to call them she. So if my work place was a female prison I'd be in trouble.

Ereshkigal · 16/08/2018 13:31

I think my concern is with the seemingly significant number of people in the trans community with comorbid cluster B personality disorders who like to make trouble for people. I won't use "she" for a male. I would try to avoid pronouns. To one of these people that would be seen as invalidating. I get that you don't think it's that important and you draw a different line. But you still draw a line.

Italiangreyhound · 16/08/2018 15:25

Yes I absolutely draw a line. And respect others views. I'd just like to find solutions. But I do respect other people's lines, or try to, and don't want to be perceived any other way. Smile

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 16/08/2018 15:34

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

This happens to me A LOT

thebewilderness · 16/08/2018 19:36

Ironically, it is toxic males who are causing many of the issues so actually if we could come together to fight toxic masculinity we might actually get somewhere.

Not specifically directed at you.
More a general comment about how frustrating it is to be told women have made no progress and will only make progress if we work with men to solve the problems men create for other men.
I understand that you may not think that is what you are telling women, so you are welcome to ignore me at your leisure.

R0wantrees · 16/08/2018 22:44

recent thread:
OP LisaMuggeridge writes,
"As far as I was aware all mothers had a legal responsibilit to identify and stand up to male pattern abusive behaviour. Its fairly well defined, the duluth wheel, intersectionality, case law, we know what abusive behaviour is. If someone is demonstrating male pattern abusive behaviour they are expressing their gender, so how can you be misgendering them by identifying and managing that risk? Are we not legally required to disregard identity when male pattern abusive behaviour is demonstrated? Has this changed?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3308540-Misgendering-and-abusive-male-pattern-behaviour

Italiangreyhound · 16/08/2018 23:29

"More a general comment about how frustrating it is to be told women have made no progress and will only make progress if we work with men to solve the problems men create for other men.
I understand that you may not think that is what you are telling women, so you are welcome to ignore me at your leisure."

I don't think women have made no progress. I didn't say no progress. At one time we had no legal rights to our own kids. Of course we have made progress.

I think women have made loads of progress.

I just think male toxic behaviour persists. I think some of this trans debate sways us away from tackling other issues.

But I respect any woman's right to fight the issues she sees as relevant and significant, of course.

I don't want to ignore you. I want to make progress so I want to understand different views.

I just think maybe the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If I am fighting Bobby and BIlly, my energy is diverted two ways. I may not need Bobby's help to fight Billy but I may need to stop fighting Bobby to tackle Billy.

I guess if Bobby isn't a threat I might need to put aside any issues.

I think it's tactical. But I could be wrong. I came into this 'debate' looking for middle ground. I can't seem to find it. But maybe I just don't know where to look.