Misgendering.

[FloralBunting]

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

BertrandRussell

I totally agree with you

let me ask you this we are in a meeting at work would you repeatedly misgender me in the meeting even if me or someone else asked you not too. would you continue. if I kept calling you the wrong name or kept telling everyone something that is really important to you but I deliberately got it wrong what would you say to me?

No I wouldn't. Partly out of not wanting to be rude to your face, partly because I don't want to lose my job. But I don't like having to lie. I think it's domineering. It's not actually the "wrong name". If you changed your name that's different. Pronouns are not the same thing. Where does it end, Bespin? If I ask you to call me "your majesty" because I truly believe I am royal should you do so? Do you think if someone wants to be referred to as "fae" or some weird gender pronoun that everyone should have to jump to it?

Oh and people do often call me the wrong name. It's not a big deal for me.

Ereshkigal

your majesty I would not unless you are royal as is required simular to dr if your not one. fae yes if they asked me. too then I would respect that I may make mistakes and that would be fine I would. apologie and move on.

Why should you have to pander to whimsical nonsense? Either my self identified royalty (although why isn't it as valid as self identity as a woman when you are male?) or the fae/faer business? I know it would undermine your gender identity ideology if you didn't so I can see why you would have to, but 99 per cent of the population would bristle and only do it on pain of dismissal or other sanctions.

Bespin, so if someone requires others to use language in a novel and outlandish way, on pain of being called a bigot, it is somehow showing reasonableness to say "If you get it wrong, apologize, and move on"?

Because that doesn't look reasonable to me at all.

Ereshkigal

99% actually gender me correctly as I said its very rare that they do misgender me and no one makes them do it. the royalty thing is a legal thing you are not allowed to do it. your not. British are you lol

I am British. I can identify however I like. Isn't that what people like you believe? I don't have to be British royalty, do I? Why is that not worthy of respect when demanding silly made up nonsense pronouns are respected is?

FloralBunting

you have every right to misgender me I would ask you not. to others would probably think you were rude if you continued and if you worked with me a chose to keep on doing it when asked not to over time then that would be bullying someone which is what you would be dismissed for not misgendering me

no one makes them do it.

That depends on a number of factors. I'm not sure you're in a position to state that unless you completely pass as the opposite sex.

Ereshkigal

See now heres the thing if you had a genuinely held belief you wanted to be British infact you were applying for British citizenship then I would 100 support you in that after all we are great lol but I feel. you are not so until you do have that belief then let's not pretend it the same.

right bed time hot choccy is waiting and a good book night all

You've just said you would complain about bullying if people "misgendered" you so yes they are being made to and controlled.

In general it creates a hostile environment for women to have to deal with this kind of coercive control from male people in the workplace.

when you say misgender, what do you mean though? is it just being called the pronoun that applies to your actual and apparent sex? how can anyone argue with that?

See now heres the thing if you had a genuinely held belief you wanted to be British infact you were applying for British citizenship then I would 100 support you in that after all we are great lol but I feel. you are not so until you do have that belief then let's not pretend it the same.

I'm sure you think that's a clever response. It isn't. I don't care whether you believe I am British or not. Toodle pip!

Bespin, really? You're happy to tie people up in knots who may have very specific issues around stating facts like sex pronouns incorrectly, and accuse them of bullying if they don't consistently grovel when they don't do what has been required?

I mean, I get the English horror of being impolite and queue jumping, but being impolite by not using random clunky words that aren't even English in place of universally understood sex pronouns?

This is what I started the thread about. Why do you think this trumped up offense is going to have any traction at all with the wider public? Yes, English people are generally polite. But they are also bolshy so and so's who rarely enjoy feeling like someone is taking liberties and the piss.

See now heres the thing if you had a genuinely held belief you wanted to be British infact you were applying for British citizenship then I would 100 support you in that after all we are great lol but I feel. you are not so until you do have that belief then let's not pretend it the same.**

What a load of bollocks. Anyone can have a genuinely held belief that they are British, but, unless they fulfil certain clearly defined requirements they are NOT. Even someone who was applying for British citizenship would NOT be British, and have mo right to describe themselves as British or to demand that other people call them British. Neither would they have the rights of British Citizens. They would have the same human rights as anyone else, but not those specific and exclusive to British Citizens.

Clear definitions. Your problem is that you reject clear definitions.

I was repeatedly called the wrong name in a meeting last week. The person doing it has done it on previous occasions. The other name is my colleague. We're nothing alike and it's very annoying. Everytime, I correct them and they insincerely apologise then do it again.
They're not forgetful - it's a power play. They're trying to put me in my place, as they think I'm subordinate to them (I'm not).
I'm considering deliberately getting their name wrong and see how they like it 😠
Also get the Mrs Husband Name. Anything with that on it goes in the bin! It's denying my identity and saying I only exist in reference to a man.

Have I accused anyone of causing me violence? No. I complain and get on with it.

They're not forgetful - it's a power play.
Indeed. I've seen it happen with foreign names. "Oh how funny I can't spell/pronounce/remember that so I shall call you Sally instead" is quite common. Some people with hard to pronounce names happily shorten or anglicise them, but that's their call. You don't do it for them.
As for misgendering, I've had that all my life. 99% of the time unintentional. I ignore it mainly because if/when the other person realises, the awkward apologies are more uncomfortable for us both. Likewise any other parties present. Plus does it really matter if the person at the rail station ticket office calls me sir? I might never see them again.
WRT pronouns, I think if I knew someone wanted to be known as the opposite sex pronouns I'd play along out of politeness, but as for someone using the myriad of other pronouns, I'd avoid interacting with them entirely. I avoid interacting with people who deliberately seek to take offence at everything and super special pronouns are a big red flag.

I can imagine how it could be very hurtful and embarrassing for people who are hoping they 'pass' as the opposite gender, feeling insecure and so on, and then if they are mis-gendered it might confirm their insecurities and be painfully awkward. (Oh god what if people think I'm a man, can I do this, do I look ridiculous, is this really me - all validated by an innocent 'he'...)
But I would hope/assume they would be understanding of people who did do it, as I would also hope/assume that people wouldn't deliberately misgender someone to embarrass or shame them.
But I'm not that fussed about pronoun usage really, I don't know why. It's just not one of the things that angers me about this whole debate.
I would call a transwoman 'she' if it made them feel happier. It doesn't mean I think they are a woman.

BertrandRussell at Tue 14-Aug-18 20:37:42 - I totally agree with you.

In terms of people getting names wrong at work, are you sure it's really a power play, MyWeaponofChoiceisWords. I only say this becase I am hopeless with names! I am dyslexic and I have found if I get a person's name wrong at the start of a friendship, I find it really hard to ever get it right!

I worry about all the claims of 'literal violence' because it seems to pave the way to expressing violence against others. Naming something non-violent as violent is manipulative.

However, I can really see that purposely using a pronoun a person has rejected if that person is acting in good faith seems manipulative too.

If I am in a working relationship/friendship with someone I think I would feel it proper and polite to either use their chosen pronoun or avoid pronouns altogether.

Of course I'd want to use their name correctly too.

Enjoy your hot choccy, Bespin.

you have every right to misgender me

That's not true though is is? For example as a consequence of pressure from TRAs MN include as part of the new guidelines on this board:

"That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’."

If posters mispronoun someone on this board the post will be subject to reports, likely deleted and the poster potentially given a strike.
This refers not just to posters with whom there is a 'conversation' happening on a thread but also about the preferred pronouns a poster may not be aware of or a person whose identitity is a transwoman and has been in the national press for crimes involving their penis.
Similarly the press and police etc are required (or believe they are required) to report a person based on their gender identity and preferred pronouns as described in the recent petition started by Jean Hatchett:
(extract)
"British Transport Police are at present allowing some alleged criminals to self-identify as female when arrested. These alleged criminals are clearly not women as eye witnesses can testify. The crime is then recorded as a female crime and reported as such to the press. An example of this was recently reported widely in the tabloid press where many were shocked to see females in a video allegedly repeatedly stomping on a man's head. The man suffered a broken eye socket. Two police officers also received injuries. The bodies of the suspects appear to be male. The bodies of the suspects appear to be wearing dresses and wigs. Eye witnesses have confirmed that the bodies were male. But the suspects were recorded as female because they said they were.

This is against the codes provided in the Police and Criminal Investigations Act 1984. (continues)

www.change.org/p/charge-a-crime-as-a-male-crime-according-to-uk-law-not-by-self-identified-gender

If I am in a working relationship/friendship with someone I think I would feel it proper and polite to either use their chosen pronoun or avoid pronouns altogether.

I doubt avoiding pronouns would be enough. Because it's about either controlling others or validation, often both. If you did this (and that is what I would do too btw) you would be signalling that you don't accept their "gender" and that's as far as you are prepared to go.

Italiangreyhound
In the example I gave, yes I am sure. The person doesn't get other peoples' names wrong in the same meeting. They don't like me or the colleague (very long story) and there's a political thing between their organisation and ours. They do it repeatedly. If you could see/hear us it would be obvious they're doing it on purpose.
Obviously there are cases where people can't help it.
The point of example was my reaction to it - I haven't accused them of 'literal violence' by denying my existence by calling me colleague's name.