Misgendering.

[FloralBunting]

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

It's taking a line from cults, secret societies and authoritarian movements, too. If you're not using the secret language correctly, you're not in the club and can therefore be denounced or ignored safely, while those who know the "correct" and most recent shifts maintain a sense of superiority. For e.g. the Masons, if you don't do the funny handshake, you don't get the investment tips and promotion offers. For TRAs, that means keeping the headlines and social media alight, silencing moderate views and feminist voices with the implied threat of losing work and reputation. In Maoist China, it meant killing off the older generation to remove political opposition.

It is always all about obedience training

Nailed it.

It's about dominance and submission.
First I make you say what I want.
Then I make you do what I want.
Finally you accept you are my subordinate.

It's about dominance and submission.
First I make you say what I want.
Then I make you do what I want.
Finally you accept you are my subordinate

"Male person uses threats and legalities to control women's access to education" is hardly a new phenomenon, is it? Well done, Lily, for upholding the patriarchy so thoroughly.

There was a thread a few weeks back where a number of women shared how often they are misgendered. (I was on it but NC since)

Male is the default in our world so someone has to notice/realise you're female to apply she/her and despite obviously female presenting others don't notice. As commented above it's also about making the point to a woman they aren't performing femininity right either in appearance or more often behaviours, so it often happens in a predominantly male gathering.

Females either ignore the misgendering or politely correct.

I used to be able to use the gender pronoun people wanted me too but the more I've realised how much of the TRA agenda is around controlling women I am finding it harder. If someone makes an effort to present as female and most importantly acts as a woman rather than a controlling male I can but if they have obviously male features they have made no effort to disguise (e.g. Excessively Bushy eyebrows which are cheap and easy to adjust) or have obvious male entitlement/violence my mind just can't make that cognitive leap.

One group demands we break greeting and naming conventions, and instead introduce a system that uses a power dynamic

What other reason could there be for someone who is obviously male, and presenting as male, requiring 'they' for instance. Its absolutely a power trip and utterly narcissistic.

There are two different things going on here. Accommodating a man with gender dysphoria by using she, so as not to upset him.

And the recognition of men who use that convention to purposely dominate women.

Which is why everyone can accept the right pronouns, at exactly the same time as rejecting them. Because it becomes very obvious what motivates the request.

I utterly reject that I can't call these misogynistic, power crazy men, he and him.

Layer upon layer of deceit and manipulation are swiftly and quite breathtakingly revealed, when you post a photo of people like Jane Fae as a man, for instance.

It's like a visual Babel Fish. It instantly translates what you've been reading into something quite different. And the only shock left is how you could ever have fallen for it in the first place. Calling a man she is the first stage in the mistranslation.

So yes misgendering, like almost all of this, needs challenging, as it is is entirely dependent upon who is asking for it. And again, the backlash will only serve to hurt men who have genuine gender dysphoria.

Re Lily above, very ladylike glad I don't have a daughter going to Goldsmiths

It is always all about obedience training

This. Worked in France yonks ago and - as an English speaker - was charmed by the (to me) elaborate dance around avoiding using 'you' when addressing someone at work for the first time. You basically seemed to try to let the other go first and use (more formal) vous or (familiar) tu. So instead of 'Would you like to see the report now', you'd hear 'Shall we look at the report now' etc. Found it fascinating.

If I couldn't bring myself to use she/her with a male born person, I imagine I'd slip into rearranging sentences in a similar way, avoiding pronouns. Or maybe I'd just talk like my 2 year old DN and say 'LM has left LM's laptop on the train'.

Misgender? No. Forced use of pronouns? Also No. Polite restructuring of sentences Yes. Wonder if LM would get LM's lawyer onto me?

Thanks for the input all. About to go out to work so not got a lot of time, but wanted to bash out a few thoughts.

I understand why the TRA are pushing the pronoun usage, and yes, it's coercive control for sure. Regular trans people usually just introduce the idea for politeness, which is in itself part of the social contract, but the TRA focus certainly has a sinister controlling edge.

I guess what I'm interested in particularly here is why this accusation of 'misgendering' has any power at all. It's used so often as an example of the awfulness of people who don't comply, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of why it's useful to them as an accusation.

For example, if you told my dad that someone had been racist to someone, he would have an immediate, negative reaction about that person. It is clearly, socially, a bad thing to do.

If I told him that someone had misgendered someone, it's entirely likely he wouldn't really know what I was talking about. The accusation would have no power at all because it would be the equivalent of me telling him someone had told someone they were chocophobic - it's a term he's unfamiliar with that would require me to explain the term before he even understood why someone would be offended, and even then I don't think he'd see a problem. (A chocophobic is a word I made up to mean someone who doesn't like chocolate for anyone reading who is now troubled by the existence of faux bigotry)

So I think the comments upthread about the training of young people are significant here, because if they are introduced to this crime of 'misgendering' early, it won't seem such an opaque thing to be cross about.

For the rest of the population, I'm a little baffled even now that anyone feels perturbed at being accused of it, beyond the suggestion that someone hasn't been polite - which has some power among more buttoned up English types perhaps, but beyond that?

LM will be just one of many, many G/S students willing to sue to get what they want. Some of whom will have far deeper pockets than LM and far fancier family connections.

LM will not feel nearly as special at G/S.

(I went there 15 years ago)

It’s because misgendering is seen as obliterating the person. Saying they don’t exist and by definition wanting them dead. That’s why deadnaming is such a big deal.

I believe Madigan's correct pronoun is "your litigiousness".
As are the many.

It's because misgendering is seen as obliterating the person. Saying they don't exist and by definition wanting them dead. That's why deadnaming is such a big deal.

Oh ffs talk about un-necessary drama, some people are choosing to interpret misgendering as this. We've discussed the reasons someone might misgender and they range from accidental to control but none are wishing someone dead.

I was simply addressing this point. “I guess what I'm interested in particularly here is why this accusation of 'misgendering' has any power at all.”

Misgendering is an odd one. I have had a male person who was obviously male scream at me that they were a she not a he. How on earth am I to know this?

I do make an effort with people I know. I have a cousin who is transsexual and even with her I get it wrong at times, but you know what..she doesn't scream at me, she doesn't say I am committing literal violence or anything, she doesn't much care. I honestly think most transpeople would be like this, they may find it rude if its done constantly and deliberately, but would not have this ridiculous OTT reaction that transactivists have.

Which is why I feel
also having worked with people who Truely have narcissistic personality disorder and the damage that this can do to both them and those around them I find your comparisons to trans people make no sense.

I don't think upstart is saying all trans people are narcissists..but most transactivists appear to be.

Why isn’t using the wrong name or title for a woman also a wicked thing and a literal death threat ?

I know lots of women who are often called by the wrong name and when they correct they other person, that person starts to argue will them and tell them that no, it IS their name.

Five common examples

Eg I am a woman called Chris Brown married to Robert Smith. People will insist on calling me Mrs Smith even when I tell them that’s not my name. Sometimes I’ve even been told that it’s ILLEGAL to call myself Ms Brown if I’m married. People tell me I’m doing it to spite my ILs and ask me how my husband feels about it.

Eg I’m a woman Chris Brown married to Jane Brown - she changed her name to mine when we got married. People will frequently tell her that She can’t do that / it’s weird and really She is NOT Jane Brown , that she is just pretending to have her wife’s name.

Eg I’m a woman Chris Brown . When I divorced my ex husband, I kept the name Brown as it’s my children’s name and I’ve used it for 20 years. People tell me I must have issues to keep “ his” name and that I should change it . Because women never actually own a name, they just get to borrow it from the man who owns them.

Eg I’m a woman called Professor Chris Brown, but I’m often written to as Dear Sir or called Mr Brown because someone in my job must be male.

Eg I’m Chris Brown who was adopted when I was 6 months old. 50 years later people still ask me what is my REAL name. Because the one I have used for 49 1/2 years isn’t real.

In every case, women who complain about these things are told they are silly , that’s its inconsequential.

That they are not allowed to be offended because it’s the speaker who gets to decide on how the woman should feel.

They are Told they were “ just making conversation “ or “ just interested”.

And it’s their own fault for flaunting social convention.

Why is this I wonder ?

It's about dominance and submission.
^First I make you say what I want.
Then I make you do what I want.^
Finally you accept you are my subordinate

This.

It’s also a feature of an abusive relationship that there are things that are practically impossible to get right all the time so you are always on the back foot.

And yes to this too. Been there. Not going there again.

After viewing the vlog from young teenager Chloe Arden ("Why I hate being transgender", 2 million plus views on Youtube), I can understand how those with gender dysphoria suffer.

For her, it is a slap in the face. It means that she will never be "good enough" - a constant theme in her vlog. It's heartbreaking to watch the effect on her mental health, over the past couple of years.

As has been well argued on this topic, misgendering is something altogether different for other people under the Trans umbrella: it's a weapon to overcome resistance and subdue critics.

US school resources
twitter.com/GLSEN

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been covered.

I am a lesbian, I have been with my wife for 20 years, in a CP for 6 years.

I am mis-sexuality-ed constantly. Any new person, be it new acquaintance, new doctor, new course leader, (you get my drift) I have to say 'no, my partner is a woman.'

Do I get my dykey drawers in a twist?
Do I complain that they have literally been violent to me?
Do I tweet to their managers?
Do I make it all about me?

Of course, I don't do I? Why would I?
The norm in society is that woman are heterosexual, are in relationships with men.

It's wearing, I must admit and can feel hard if my anxiety is high, I do want people to like ME and not judge me.

But is my choice to open about my life and that is the risk I take. I haven't ever been openly rejected but there are relationships that aren't as close as they could be, often because men don't like their women mixing with lesbians. I can't imagine why? 😉🤣

So why is mis-gendering seen as so offensive? People have chosen to step outside the norm and have to face the consequences, as I do.

Their identity is tied up in being the other sex? Well, that's impossible, I am sorry.
They can present however they want but people subconsciously identify people by characteristics other than clothes, hair, make-up etc. They pick up on body and face shape, hands and feet, all things that are difficult or impossible to change.
They think I am straight because I am a woman, it's that simple.

So should I start campaigning to never ever ever have the assumption made that I am straight?

They can present however they want but people subconsciously identify people by characteristics other than clothes, hair, make-up etc.

Exactly. I misgendered here the other day and was deleted for it. I was really sleep deprived when I wrote my post and didn't realise I'd done it until mumsnet quoted my post in their email to me. But the person I'd misgendered.... It is really hard to conceive of them as female. I haven't got a clue what they look like, I misgendered them based specifically on the vile misogynistic statements they'd made. My tired brain forgot to tell my words to flip meanings.

Whatever. Many people apparently were sufficiently outraged to report me. I have to assume they were totally cool with the misogyny. Nice.

I once received a wall o' text meltdown from a transgender for using they when referring to them. That was the last time I attempted to accommodate an abusive male in that particular way.

R0wantrees

I am surprised the teacher aren't furnished with pink triangles to label suspect students.

I don't think upstart is saying all trans people are narcissists..but most transactivists appear to be.

IIRC the co-morbidity rate is 80%.