Trans councillor leaves roles after 'threats to life'

[Bespin]

I'm not one for posting threads on here but I feel this is quite a sad position for this person and shows how hard it is to maintain a professional stance on this when you are receiving threats and abuse at the levels that are currently happening on the Internet, in no way am I saying this is gender critical people. But this debate as now got to such a level that it is starting to cost people there livelihoods on both sides of this so called debate.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-tayside-central-45151228

Perhaps your 'community' simply needs to butt out of aggressively trying to infiltrate female territory, Bespin.

Women didn't start this argument.

There, sorted

have a lovely day all, my battery is low so off to find something to do in the real world.

if. you see everything as an attack then you do tend to attack back in defence

Attack back in defence. That’s an interesting phrase to use.

Are you saying that people who deem words and women saying no verbally as an attack are justified in responding violently?

We have a situation where women are peacefully saying no and are being physically, professionally and legally attacked for it. Is that something you think is justified?

I have to say bespin that it does sound rather like a threat, to say ‘ if. you see everything as an attack then you do tend to attack back in defence’

That tendency is wrong. I will not shut up. Words never merit violence.

have a lovely day all, my battery is low so off to find something to do in the real world.

Of course you are. Aye.

Fuckity-bye 👋

have a lovely day all, my battery is low so off to find something to do in the real world.

Your phone charger is your friend, bespin.

Report prior to Murray's resignation (linked previously):

"Dundee’s children and families convener has been told to “consider his position” following the fresh discovery of foul and abusive outbursts posted online.

Concerned members of the public have reported numerous examples of North East councillor Gregor Murray directing explicit-laden tirades at users on the news aggregation site Reddit.

Gregor Murray, who identifies as gender non-binary and objects to being referred to with the use of the pronoun “he”, apologised last month for using foul language on Twitter “in anger” following an anti-trans protest at a London Pride event.

The councillor conceded that the words used reflected “badly upon my city and my party”.

The convener was later branded a “disgrace” by party colleague and Kirriemuir and Dean councillor Julie Bell over the remarks.

Dundee City Council leader John Alexander described the language used by the convener on Reddit as “unacceptable” and said he would be discussing the matter with his colleague directly.

The posts were made before the Twitter row unfolded and appear to have no relation to the convener’s Pride march fury and stretch back over weeks and months.

Philip Scott, who also sits on the children and families services committee, said it was “really disappointing to read more of this stuff”.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas

The Internet is a. odd. Place where people think its the most. important thing in the world, it is not. Also poeple can be genuine when did we stop. beleiving each other in that regard. anyway have a lovely day and a peaceful night

Philip Scott, who also sits on the children and families services committee, said it was “really disappointing to read more of this stuff”.

Saying you’re “disappointed” makes you sound like a primary school teacher doing pretend anger to a naughty child.

no that's not what I'm saying I'm concerned that people are undertaking actions that cost them a position in this case and a criminal record in another that this will ruin people's lives

Then go and talk to the people doing those things. Why are you telling us? How does what people chat about on mumsnet relate to other people being violent and/or abusive?

Gregor has Bespin to thank for Gregor's deplorable behaviour being highlighted on Mumsnet.

Probably peaked a few more lurkers.

Thanks, Bespin. Have a nice day

So, in short, non-binary person with penis (white and middle class and a member of the Masons - who, for reference, only accept biologically male individuals as members - and in a position of power) calls women he disagrees with cunts and similar online, on an account where he makes much of his official position as a councillor and his responsibilities to young people as a scout leader.

This is publicised.

Under pressure from his colleagues and the public, he reluctantly resigns.

After the fact, he tries to spin this as "having received threats" which actually translates as "people noticed my own bad behaviour and publicly told me it was bad behaviour."

Bespin then comes along and tries to lie to us by only mentioning the supposed after-the-fact spin. And thinks we're so stupid we won't notice. Then back pedals, then forward pedals, then conveniently has phone run out of battery.

Nice one Bespin. I'd say this thread was a bit of a spectacular own goal.

Sorry, all, reposting with my heat-of-the-moment inadvertent misgendering corrected.

So, in short, non-binary person with penis (white and middle class and a member of the Masons - who, for reference, only accept biologically male individuals as members - and in a position of power) calls women they disagree with cunts and similar online, on an account where they make much of their official position as a councillor and their responsibilities to young people as a scout leader.

This is publicised.

Under pressure from their colleagues and the public, they reluctantly resign.

After the fact, they try to spin this as "having received threats" which actually translates as "people noticed my own bad behaviour and publicly told me it was bad behaviour."

Bespin then comes along and tries to lie to us by only mentioning the supposed after-the-fact spin. And thinks we're so stupid we won't notice. Then back pedals, then forward pedals, then conveniently has phone run out of battery.

Nice one Bespin. I'd say this thread was a bit of a spectacular own goal.

Bespin

I'm sorry you didn't respond to my two posts before you left the thread.
They are, I think important so I have joined them together:

Can I ask you read the two aticles from the Dundee Chronicle which has reported the details?

The same question will of course rightly be asked of the BBC reporter no doubt.

Are you concerned by the innacurate and / or biased reporting by the BBC, having now read the background to the case?

Do you agree that others who have only read the BBC article may now have a distorted picture of the circumstances as perhaps you did initially?

I'm astonished that the Scouts don't insist on better standards from their leaders.

I don't know much about this person, are they biologically male or female? Are they a trans man? From the photo it's hard to tell.

The Internet is a. odd. Place where people think its the most. important thing in the world, it is not.

Perhaps stay off it then?

If you have to run away when you are called out - again - no doubt telling people we 'literally violented' you by posting responses to your incredibly disingenuous thread, then it possibly isn't the best place for you.

As women, we are well used to it.

Perhaps that is something you could use the time away to ponder on.

FermatsTheorem
Is Gregor Murray also a member of the Freemasons?
There has been a lot of focus on Edward Lord's membership of The Brotherhood (also identifies as non-binary) following their launch of The City of London consultation on single-sex spaces.

I hadn't read that Murray was also a member.

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

I don't know much about this person, are they biologically male or female? Are they a trans man?

My understanding is that Gregor Murray identifies as non-binary, preferred pronouns are they /their.

but at what point are we going to stop attacking and actually start working to solve this 'debate'

I think that can and will happen when the borrowing from Dummies Guide To Dictatorship stops.

Going to be be a hard thing to achieve before that, because one side is justifiably seething at having to self-censure and self-edit to the point that what they are allowed to say fails to convey the clarity of what they mean. And that's on one of the few communication channels still left open to them.

Which is a deeply frustrating place to be and does not tend to make people feel well disposed towards those on the other side. Who are skipping about in a starkly contrasting liberty. With some of them publically giggling about the handcuffs they have helped to put their opponents in.

However, I believe there are far more reasonable people on both sides than there are extremists who want t'other side in the stocks or pitchforked out of the Village of Discussion. They are harder to spot because when things get this hostile, heads drop down behind parapets in high numbers.

If a crack appears in the belief that silencing via social sanction, removal of popular communication platforms and legislation is A Good Thing, then things could turn around. The temperature should then drop in many circles and there'd be more talk and less shout.

I am not without hope that the above can happen. But by the same token I am not wildly optimistic it will happen very soon either. Because of tactics contagion. Which has given me reason to have concerns that things will get a lot lot worse before they can start to get better.

It's deffo getting worse on my side of the alps. There was a grassroots attempt to get it going one way, particularly in urban areas, but then we had an election, after some protracted arm waving a government was formed. Based on very recent statements from senior members of said new government I can see them going for a very strong armed push back, with use of the same tactics. On the entire rainbow.

And women, because there was one comment with reference to reproduction that made my ears prick up.

Listening to the radio here, I am getting the heebie geebies as per where this stupid stupid revival of obviously dangerous tactics could end up going.

Genies are hard to stuff back in the bottle. But the sort of people who over-confidently pull the cork out tend not to be those with an eye for the contagious nature of unintended consequences.

Maybe that's why we seem doomed to repeat the same cycles.

A notable human failing seems to be an ability to acknowledge that human failings exist, all while holding fast to the over-confident belief that they themselves have some kind of special immunity from said failings.

Leading them to gleefully leap on high-risk tactics when it suits, then looking all shocked when people they don't agree with go all "if it's gone back to being socially acceptable sauce for the gander...this goose is going saucy too."

The only real hope I see is growing numbers of people saying no to the tactics, regardless of who is using them, regardless who they are being used against.

But that tends to happen when frustration has reached a point where the fear that kept heads firmly down turns into furious backlash. Which is scary because we know from the past that a backlash can become every bit as malevolent, short sighted and power hungry as the forces that caused it to exist.

I don't know if anybody can be sure where we are right now. I have hope that we can still roll this back before we hit a point of no return. But I don't know if that is an accurate assessment, or just me trying to calm my inner alarm system. That has been beeping at me for some time, with volume creeping up in volume.

I'm up for joining an army of people who demand no purity of perspectives from their allies. Can agree to disagree about pleanty of hotly contested issues within the ranks while the battles rage on. Will stand shoulder to shoulder to push back against the authoritarian tactics as hard as we can. Whenever they are used. Whoever they are used on. Always. Every time. Without exception.

I am not equipped to be a leader, I'm infantry material. Tell me where my Generals are and I will pootle off to sign up.

Let the fight to kill the authoritarian dragon commence.

We win.

Then maybe we can solve the debate, as you want.

But there is no way to put the cart before the horse.

First the creeping authoritarian tactics have to be defeated. Because you can't find solutions via debate if one side of the debate is being deliberately and knowingly hobbled.

This is true about any debate, about any issue. Which is why hobbling became popular long, long, long before you and I were alive.. Makes it so very very much easier for one side to claim a debate happened, their solutions won, and everybody need to just sit down, shut up and get with the programme quick sharp.

Ah sorry, my mistake - it's Lord who is the member of the Masons. So hard to keep all these different bearded and be-penised non-binary individuals straight in my head.

(Incidentally, I have every sympathy with be-vulvaed non-binary young people. They are labouring under the delusion that identifying as non-binary gets them out of the social pressure to conform to the shitty gender norms society tries to impose on us. That their supposed solution merely compounds the problem as well as making things worse for women as a whole, while not actually making one ounce of difference to how society treats them, doesn't occur to them, but hey, I was young and daft once too, and I could well see that the 16 year old me might have gone down that route if it was fashionable at the time).

Perhaps your 'community' simply needs to butt out of aggressively trying to infiltrate female territory, Bespin.

Hear hear.

The OP said:
if. you see everything as an attack then you do tend to attack back in defence

And this is the nub of the problem. As TRAs see anything that is not totally affirming as 'transphobic' they feel completely justified in going on the attack, verbal, physical, silencing, intimidating, blocking, brigading and so on. They DARVO as evidenced in the case the OP cited and see themselves as the perpetual victim.
And the demands on women are repeatedly that we shut up, that we agree to their ever changing demands in totality.

Well OP, it's time that you concentrated your efforts on 'policing' your own side. Go and tell them to stop including the child rapists, paedophiles and murderers under their umbrella. Go and tell them to start being concerned about children's welfare, go and tell them to start trying to understand why women don't want to share spaces with penises, maybe go and establish some rape crisis / DV centres as we did back in the day.

Feminists are no physical threat to TRAs - but TRAs evidentially pose a massive threat to feminists - the evidence is all there. Go and sort THAT out!

The Internet is a. odd. Place where people think its the most. important thing in the world, it is not.

What, like women's rights and the safeguarding of children?

Yeah. NO.

DARVO - Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.
Its so common there's a name for it.

If you abuse people
and are called out on your abuse
you are not the victim.