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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans councillor leaves roles after 'threats to life'

375 replies

Bespin · 11/08/2018 05:09

I'm not one for posting threads on here but I feel this is quite a sad position for this person and shows how hard it is to maintain a professional stance on this when you are receiving threats and abuse at the levels that are currently happening on the Internet, in no way am I saying this is gender critical people. But this debate as now got to such a level that it is starting to cost people there livelihoods on both sides of this so called debate.


www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-tayside-central-45151228

OP posts:
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Bespin · 11/08/2018 22:23

hi all just got in from the pub, had a lovely day turned a bit hot earlier we are moored near a pub at the moment so would seem a waste not to use it also saw our friends who are on there 80s and still boating. I'm a little merry now realise I've become a twitter sensation in my absence. anyway thanks for people highlighting the dyslexia it's something I'm passionate about. I'm now off to bed as Frankley far to merry to give a tonight having appeared to upset everyone but I'm glad the thread got used for something. anyway laters as the young ens say.

OP posts:
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KatVonSweet · 11/08/2018 23:34

Sleep well!

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Voice0fReason · 11/08/2018 23:58

Non-binary is such a meaningless term.
In what way is he openly trans? Previously owning sparkly wellies and having worn nail varnish in the past doesn't make you part woman.

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LaSquirrel · 12/08/2018 00:34

Murray seems to be a serial DARVOist.
I wonder if Murray grew the beard to be a more convincing 'non-binaryist'?

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ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/08/2018 01:14

TerfsUp

According to h tweet, Gregor "identifies" as trans.


KatVonSweet

If that's what makes you trans I guess we all are.

Sigh. What a ridiculous mess

Reminds me of that time when some feminists decided to 'identify' as afab transwomen. Much hilarity ensued.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/there-is-only-one-protected-class-of-women-and-it-is-men/

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ALittleBitofVitriol · 12/08/2018 01:17

Actually, it wasn't feminists, it was female non-binary people calling themselves transwomen... sorry!

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ArcheryAnnie · 12/08/2018 01:20

So who has been making these threats to this councillor, and what did they say?

Or are they just an excuse from the councillor who has had to resign because of his own bad behaviour?

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RiceandBeans · 12/08/2018 06:55

Previously owning sparkly wellies and having worn nail varnish in the past doesn't make you part woman

If that we’re the case, then most of the Male pop idols of the 1970s were “really” women.

Which is rubbish: straight or gay, they were all definitely men and masculine. Oh yesssssss

Gregor Fisher has a very limited and rather homophobic view of masculinity.

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R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 07:18

Dundee Evening Telegraph article:

"Dundee children’s convener quits after foul-mouthed social media outbursts

Dundee City Council’s children and family services convener has resigned in the wake of a number of social media scandals.

Councillor Gregor Murray, representative for the North East ward, said today they were taking a step back in the light of using language “inappropriate” for someone in their position.

The conduct on social media, the councillor conceded, had not been “handled…well in the slightest”

Council leader John Alexander said he had accepted Gregor’s resignation, adding: “I think it’s only right they have apologised.”

Councillor Stewart Hunter is set to be reappointed children and family services convener at the next meeting of the city council on August 20, with Councillor Anne Rendall lined up to replace Gregor as equalities spokesperson.

Gregor, who identifies as gender non-binary and uses the “they” pronoun to refer to themselves, has been involved in a number of social media rows in recent months.

In July last year, they referred to the political equality group Women 50:50 as “absolute roasters”, and was slammed by a number of the group’s supporters including then-Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale.

And last month, the councillor – who will continue to represent the North East – branded a controversial group of lesbian activists “utter **s” after they gatecrashed a parade at London Pride." continues with Gregor Murray's resignation letter printed in full.

www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-childrens-convener-quits-after-foul-mouthed-social-media-outbursts

This a good article to use as comparison with one from the BBC in the OP, especially with regards BBC Editorial values. The OPs article fails to meet many of the BBC's standards, journalistic standards demonstrated in the Evening Telegraph article:
1.2.1 Trust

Trust is the foundation of the BBC: we are independent, impartial and honest. We are committed to achieving the highest standards of due accuracy and impartiality and strive to avoid knowingly and materially misleading our audiences.

1.2.2 Truth and Accuracy

We seek to establish the truth of what has happened and are committed to achieving due accuracy in all our output. Accuracy is not simply a matter of getting facts right; when necessary, we will weigh relevant facts and information to get at the truth. Our output, as appropriate to its subject and nature, will be well sourced, based on sound evidence, thoroughly tested and presented in clear, precise language. We will strive to be honest and open about what we don't know and avoid unfounded speculation.

1.2.3 Impartiality

Impartiality lies at the core of the BBC's commitment to its audiences. We will apply due impartiality to all our subject matter and will reflect a breadth and diversity of opinion across our output as a whole, over an appropriate period, so that no significant strand of thought is knowingly unreflected or under-represented. We will be fair and open-minded when examining evidence and weighing material facts.

1.2.4 Editorial Integrity and Independence

The BBC is independent of outside interests and arrangements that could undermine our editorial integrity. Our audiences should be confident that our decisions are not influenced by outside interests, political or commercial pressures, or any personal interests.

1.2.5 Harm and Offence

We aim to reflect the world as it is, including all aspects of the human experience and the realities of the natural world. But we balance our right to broadcast innovative and challenging content with our responsibility to protect the vulnerable from harm and avoid unjustifiable offence. We will be sensitive to, and keep in touch with, generally accepted standards as well as our audiences' expectations of our content, particularly in relation to the protection of children.

1.2.6 Serving the Public Interest

We seek to report stories of significance to our audiences. We will be rigorous in establishing the truth of the story and well informed when explaining it. Our specialist expertise will bring authority and analysis to the complex world in which we live. We will ask searching questions of those who hold public office and others who are accountable, and provide a comprehensive forum for public debate.

1.2.7 Fairness

Our output will be based on fairness, openness, honesty and straight dealing. Contributors and audiences will be treated with respect."
www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/bbc-editorial-values/editorial-values

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VickyEadie · 12/08/2018 11:29

Just out of interest - has Cllr Murray provided any evidence of these "threats to life"?

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Floisme · 12/08/2018 11:42

If Cllr Murray is still reading can I recommend they read bewilderness's rules of misogyny. There's one about women being responsible for everything men do. You too Bespin

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Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 12/08/2018 12:28

Bespin, (and anyone else), genuine question now that you have seen the type of person Murray is: are you not concerned about the damage that a character like this does?

My view is that to suffer from dysphoria must be terrible and if someone I cared about was going through this, I would be beyond offended that someone would trivialize it to the point of rendering it meaningless. As many posters have said, if sparkly wellies, a bit of nail polish and and enjoyment of chick flicks makes you trans then we all are (in fact, I reckon my dh and ds are much more trans than Gregor under this definition as they are also nice, sensitive types).

Murray appears to me to be a stereotypical male wearing stereotypical clothing who is using what they regard as very occasionally transgressive behaviour to usurp very real pain, make themself interesting and claim victim-hood as a cover for some appalling behaviour. Also, surely for Murray to believe that their minor deviation from the most hardline gender position is transgressive, they must be coming from a position of bigoted ignorance and prejudice where real men don't cry etc. We all know the issues with toxic masculinity but Murray is simultaneously pretending that a bogus 'trans' status of buying sparkles distances them from this culture while indulging in it to the hilt.

And actually, bespin, I'm pissed off on your behalf that they chose to mock your dyslexia. I've enough experience to know how tough this makes it for people to post on sites like this and admire you for not letting it stop you. I also think an councillor with responsibility for education should know better!

On another point, I'm concerned by how this plays out in their role with the scouts around young boys. Does Murray gaslight them into believing that they're "not a man", would they get upset if they call them Mr Murray or sir accidentally? Does GM teach them that any non-macho behaviour, any betrayal of sensitivity or a taste for games, colours, clothes that might verge on feminine makes them less of a boy?

You will note I've tried to follow they / them. It goes against the grain and I don't believe Murray deserves it nor the respect for Murray's position it entails (neither it seems do fellow councillors). It highlights the absurdity though.

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ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 12/08/2018 13:40

OP use some critical thinking.

When you step down from a job you can claim it's for any reason you want - doesn't mean it's true.

I've just checked tweets directed @ him - there's really no "abuse".

This is a classic TRA tactic and people - usually women - are too socialized to be nice to call them out on it.

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R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 13:57

This is a classic TRA tactic and people - usually women - are too socialized to be nice to call them out on it

I have been thinking about this having heard Benjamin Cohen on R4 make claims about the huge quantity of online abuse his journalists get from those (women?) opposed to the site's coverage of trans rights. It's accepted and/or absorbed without question.

Also recent comment by Liam Hatchett CEO Ditch the Label who claims to have had "thousands of abusive tweets from her [Prof Kathleen Stock]'s community of terfs"
twitter.com/DiageoLiam/status/1024610634116341760

I think with regards Gregor Murray, he describes having shown 'some ' texts to Dundee City councillors.

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IAmNotAntiWomen · 12/08/2018 14:52
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BertrandRussell · 12/08/2018 15:21

Has anyone ever seen any of the death threats directed to trans people?

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R0wantrees · 12/08/2018 15:28

That one seems to have been zapped IAmNotAntiWoman, it's also being discusssed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/3333533-Stop-conversion-therapy-of-LGBT-students-Please-sign-and-share

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ConfusedAF9 · 12/08/2018 15:51

Since they are reading this thread I would love for them to answer this question, if they are NB and not going through any type of medical or physical transition what makes them representative of the trans community? You say your openly trans but what does that really mean? Telling people your preferred pronouns and wearing nail paint. This feels like someone who's misappropriating the term transgender, even NB go through some form of permanent transition. For me transition and being transgender meant physical changes, social transition, gender dysphoria, changing my name, changing all my documents, coming out to everyone, voice therapy, hair removal , surgery etc...

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BettyDuMonde · 12/08/2018 15:58

Well, quite, ConfusedAF

This is the problem with the whole Self ID/end to medical gatekeeping thing. Women are being told we cannot have boundaries to keep out beardy men in nail varnish and I think understandably, are kicking back against that.

And unfortunately, it’s full transitioners (who we used to have an unspoken gentlewoman’s agreement with) who will be caught in the Dow winds.

I blame Stonewall and their widening of the ‘trans umbrella’ personally .

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BettyDuMonde · 12/08/2018 15:59

*down winds...


(Although now I’m thinking of dowager duchesses and the DOW index)

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RiceandBeans · 12/08/2018 16:21

Indeed @ConfusedAF9

The appropriation of “trans” and its reduction simply to nail polish and glitter is really problematic. It makes a mockery of the real suffering of someone with a deep bodily dysphoria ( I know someone with an acute dysphoric reaction to his genitals and it’s troubling and disturbing for him).

What’s wrong with someone like Gregor Morris being a feminine man? It was quite standard amongst my friends in the 1970s. Nail polish, makeup, caftans, drag, flamboyance- all great fun and an antidote to boringly sexist hippies or boringly sexist straight “normal” people.

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LangCleg · 12/08/2018 16:38

boringly sexist

I'd suggest that anyone who thinks sparkly wellies confers some special status is the boringly sexist one.

Is it really any surprise that anti-woman activism is sexist?

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Cartertheunstoppablesexmachine · 12/08/2018 16:42

Being brought up in the 70s and 80s, little shocks me.

If I see pink/blue hair, glitter on men etc. I'd just say "oh that's nice dear" as if talking to my child.

He's just another dull, self-centred middle aged man. Yawn.

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Cartertheunstoppablesexmachine · 12/08/2018 16:44

I thought he was off Twitter because we totes hurt his feelz?

There's now a response from another bro going "cool" to his Converse. Says it all really.

What a young radical eh?

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OldCrone · 12/08/2018 16:50

IAmNotAntiWoman
Your link doesn't work. I hope this one will.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/3333762-Petition-to-ban-anti-LGBT-materials-from-schools

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