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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans councillor leaves roles after 'threats to life'

375 replies

Bespin · 11/08/2018 05:09

I'm not one for posting threads on here but I feel this is quite a sad position for this person and shows how hard it is to maintain a professional stance on this when you are receiving threats and abuse at the levels that are currently happening on the Internet, in no way am I saying this is gender critical people. But this debate as now got to such a level that it is starting to cost people there livelihoods on both sides of this so called debate.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-tayside-central-45151228

OP posts:
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Datun · 11/08/2018 16:34

Gosh I was beginning to feel a little sorry for him , but he has been the subject of complaint for years, according to those links.

Being called immature and embarrassing.

I wish these people would gird their loins and have a proper conversation with women about these subjects.

And I agree, the reporting is disgracefully one-sided. The BBC have got form for this. But I have it on good authority that they listen to complaints. And at the moment they all coming from TRAs.

Please let them know they are accountable for this sort of reporting.

ssl.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/?lang=en&reset=&uid=467971991

RiceandBeans · 11/08/2018 16:34

Yo think I’ve been very polite. I am tossing up whether to respond to the “I am not a man” comment. But I’m in the middle of my lifting work out and dealing with ignorant masculinises doesn’t go well with heavy weights.

Or maybe it does .... Grin

Cartertheunstoppablesexmachine · 11/08/2018 16:38

Rice - just read the exchange

Then I read some more and saw, like little Lord Fauntlerboy, they're a mason too. The old boys' network runs deep.

Mamaryllis · 11/08/2018 16:40

Is this man still a scout leader? Does Scouting not have any code of conduct for their leaders these days? How is an obviously male volunteer calling women ‘cunts’ not bringing the organization into disrepute? (And not highlighting misogyny that the scouts should be backing away from extremely fast?)

R0wantrees · 11/08/2018 16:40

I mean I get very annoyed at the lazy hackneyed slurs I sometimes see on MN about lawyers being money grubbing hucksters, and will take issue with that, but I don't leap to the defence of individual lawyers who have actually behaved badly.

"And I can honestly say that the work that trans people do for each other means that, for me at least, the trans community is a beautiful place to be. Despite our differences, we have each others' backs"

Jess Bradley, 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

R0wantrees · 11/08/2018 16:43

The BBC have got form for this. But I have it on good authority that they listen to complaints. And at the moment they all coming from TRAs

Gregor Murray has encouraged people to complain about the BBC article on the basis it 'mispronouns /misgenders' them. There's also an issue with a hyphen!
They have complained too.

Cartertheunstoppablesexmachine · 11/08/2018 16:47

Well I guess we all know which side of the fence the BBC will come down on then.
The ones with the genuine cause - you know, hyphens, not hymens...

LangCleg · 11/08/2018 17:03

Gregor Murray has encouraged people to complain about the BBC article on the basis it 'mispronouns /misgenders' them. There's also an issue with a hyphen!

Fucks sake. This is Brass Eye, not the real world, right?!

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 11/08/2018 17:04

you know, hyphens, not hymens

Smile
TimeLady · 11/08/2018 17:20

He insists he's not a man. And that he is trans.

So that must make him a transwoman then, complete with beard?

And eligible for self-ID on that basis.

Give me strength.

I really hope the Sunday papers pick this up.

RiceandBeans · 11/08/2018 17:53

Whether he's a man or a woman or a transman or a transwoman, he is displaying some very nasty toxic masculine behaviour.

As they say, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

littlbrowndog · 11/08/2018 18:00

I think the Gregor was called a wannabe so called” lbgt hero “ by a minister

TimeLady · 11/08/2018 18:25

I'm not a man

He's in denial of something, that for sure.

RiceandBeans · 11/08/2018 18:39

We could use this person as an example - a lesson - in the difference between sex (biological physical body) and gender (historically & culturally constructed roles).

Whether or not Gregor Fisher is biologically a man or a woman, the behaviour on display (and going back some several years, it seems) is coded masculine. Very decidedly masculine.

The person in question also chooses to present as "male" and masculine as we understand it in the UK in 2018: beard, suit, tie etc.

Most people would read this person as "man."

But it seems that the behavour (masculine) and visual presentation and clothing, hair, body hair choices are for nothing - or rather, deliberately there as a stick to beat people wit.

An automatic "Don't misgender me" response from Gregor Fisher to people with whom the Councillor does not wish to listen or engage. It's the behaviour of a sociopath, as well as a misogynist (indeed, one might reasonably argue that a misogynist is automatically & necessarily a sociopath.

AnneElliott · 11/08/2018 18:51

Scouting very definitely has a code of conduct. I guess though that someone would need to complain to HQ before they would look into it.

Vickyyyy · 11/08/2018 19:02

I would imagine any threats of violence recieved would be from men, rather than feminists. Of course threats of such a nature are unacceptable, regardless of where they come from.

That said, I am a little skeptical about this, as it seems clear he has been removed/stepped down because of his own behaviour and is just trying to blame others.

Either way, he was clearly not suitable for the post.

theOtherPamAyres · 11/08/2018 19:09

Hi Gregor

Me again, giving you a cheery wave. Yitzhak, has given you a right rollicking for failing to give the genderist version of the truth. Pull yourself together and remember the script, for goodness sake.

Yitzhak:

hey, i don’t want you be a dick, but saying trans people are “born male/female” instead of “assigned male/female” centres assignment as some kind of Real Truth. it’s painful to be called “born female” when i’m not and have never been such except on paper

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/08/2018 19:16

Reality: being hard to deal with since Time Immemorial.

Still reality though, Yitzhak m’dear. If it’s painful to you then that’s a hard row for you to hoe, and I’m sorry you suffer, but no one is assigned a sex at birth. You can not deny reality to others in order for you to feel better. Reality doesn’t work like that.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2018 19:26

Scouting very definitely has a code of conduct. I guess though that someone would need to complain to HQ before they would look into it.
cf GirlGuides:

Recent update from @AgnesBadenPowell:
"I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3314566-another-girlguiding-update

TerfsUp · 11/08/2018 20:06

According to h** tweet, Gregor "identifies" as trans.

KatVonSweet · 11/08/2018 20:30

If that's what makes you trans I guess we all are.

Sigh. What a ridiculous mess

thebewilderness · 11/08/2018 20:39

The BBC policy seems to be 11th rule of misogyny: Whatever women suffer from, it is far worse when it happens to men.

Both Gregor and the beeb seem to think that DARVO is the appropriate response to misogyny.

When I saw who posted this on FWR and what they said about it I immediately thought of Burns: "O wad some Power the giftie gie us. To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae mony a blunder free us."

TimeLady · 11/08/2018 20:58

324 posts on Gregor Fisher Murray in less than a day, thanks to Bespin.

littlbrowndog · 11/08/2018 21:05

I’ll bet the yitzahak mum is thinking wtaf

The midwife looked at u and went there we are

R0wantrees · 11/08/2018 21:23

2014 Dundee Chronicle
'Dundee councillor Gregor Murray says swearing ‘shows my passion’'

concludes:
Mr Bidwell [Labour education spokesman] continued: “Councillor Murray seems to be blissfully unaware that as depute convener of education he is in a position of responsibility for promoting council policies.

“This includes responsible use of social media by pupils, teachers and other school based staff.

“He might also do well to heed advice by Police Scotland in their current ‘Keep Safe Online’ campaign which advises people to think about what they post.

“If Councillor Murray won’t commit to avoiding disrespectful and inappropriate comments in social media about political issues, I remain convinced he should stand down from his current role.”

www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/150277/dundee-councillor-gregor-murray-says-swearing-shows-my-passion/