Who will get to keep the babies born of prison rape?

[WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice]

Since already identity is more important than sex.

When prisoners are placed in the female estate rather than the male because they identify as female, and perhaps soon natal females will be placed in the male estate because they identify as male, with rape being a fairly common crime perpetrated by people with penises (formally known as males) in prison - prisoners with uteruses (formerly known as women) will most certainly become pregnant within prison walls.

So what do we think will happen to the babies?

Will female prisoners be forced to have abortions?

Will the babies be automatically be taken into state care?

Will there be a demand for these babies because of the shortage of newborns to adopt?

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

How is this going to pan out?

They seem to care an awful lot about prisoners with "an 8 inch surprise" who headbutt barmen to be able to do what ever the fuck they want so this is clearly not true.

They don't care about prisoners there though do they. They care about trans people because the trans lobby have told them too repeatedly and loudly and we're not meant to question why the trans lobby isn't trying to make life easier for transexuals and why it is instead destroying women's spaces.

You are working on the assumption that the lobbying to relax adoption/surrogacy laws will be unsuccessful.

What lobbying? By whom? All the legal moves in recent years have made it harder to sever parental rights, even in the most extreme circumstances. There are more SGOs and fewer adoption as a result.

And I actually mean they don't care about trans prisoners (not just women's prisons). It's about proving you really believe if you close your eyes tight enough that TWAreal W

What a surreal thread

It's pretty surreal putting rapists in women's prisons which will lead to unplanned life.

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

given extraordinary powers and privileges, it could lead to them breeding babies to be sold into sexual abuse

Maybe it could be a nice little earner. Off the back of relaxing surrogacy laws in the UK so people can farm/buy babies more easily.

Let's imagine one wanted to discredit MN-FWR, for some reason.

Let's imagine one wanted to paint it as totally deluded, spreading irrational lies and conspiracy theories. To suggest that the people posting are either bigots or being misled.

Surely this is the kind of thread one would post?

Taking quotes from different posts, some of which were actually responses makes it look a certain way.

People will paint things a certain way what ever the fuck you say.

I find it odd that no one wants to consider the reproductive vulnerability of women prisoners where rapists are being transferred into their estate.

Why the fucking blind spot? It is utterly unethical for the state to facilitate the creation of lives by locking women up with rapists.

Ffs!

There have been responses like:

It makes no difference, women are raped by guards.
It makes no difference, women were raped before they were imprisoned
It makes no difference their families will pick up the slack and they'll keep the babies anyway - no harm done
Etc
Etc

What a surreal thread

It's a shame the thread went so combative. We could have done better at aiding each other's understandings and misunderstandings than we did and would have achieved more in the way of providing a voice advocating for very vulnerable women.

Yes. I realise that my turns of phrase make people envisage something different to my intentions.

For example when I use the word 'conspiracy' I don't mean a plan that starts out on the back of an envelope and all parties are equally informed and complicit.

But it does piss me off that people are so afraid of things that make 'us' look bad that they vigorously and publicly stamp on it/you to silence before engaging.

Taking quotes from different posts, some of which were actually responses makes it look a certain way. People will paint things a certain way what ever the fuck you say.

I'm not trying to paint anything. I don't see how those quotes are misrepresented, but if they are not what was meant then someone who intends ill can do the same as me.

@WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice. If your intention is genuinely to have a discussion about this issue:

• Can't you see why your choice of words comes off as hyperbolic?
• Can you see why I might wonder at your motivation?
• Would it not be better to ask for deletion and repost with a slightly different tone? I think the topic of children born in prison is an important one and as @LangCleg rightly points out, this hasn't gone great has it?

But it does piss me off that people are so afraid of things that make 'us' look bad that they vigorously and publicly stamp on it/you to silence before engaging.

I think it's healthy to want to focus on the facts and details and to think about how to communicate them if you want people to listen. Loud and (rightly) angry sometimes works, but not on a topic like this.

Agree with donquixote

You are really misrepresenting the posters on this thread clarice. No one at all has claimed that rape of female prisoners = no harm done.

Sexual abuse and rape have been rife in women's prisons for years, and these issues have been going on for years. The existing facts are bad enough without resorting to lurid speculation, and rape isn't only bad if it's a transwomen doing it.

Numerous people have rightly pointed out your lack of knowledge of the issues already facing female prisoners (and failure to do even basic research), and ignorance of the processes that are already in place to deal with female prisoners who give birth or get pregnant in prison.

Not one single person has said it's not a problem, no harm done.

If multiple people all think this thread is offensive for the same reason, maybe you should consider whether they might have a point.

Can't you see why your choice of words comes off as hyperbolic?

Yes I can see that.

Can you see why I might wonder at your motivation?

Mmmm I personally give people a bit more leeway, I do see others being criticised for this, but I tend to wait and see myself.

Would it not be better to ask for deletion and repost with a slightly different tone?

The combative, insult slinging posts from others makes one need to explain/justify one's position and by the time that appears to be understood it all seems a little bit late in the day to delete it.

I think the topic of children born in prison is an important one and as LangCleg rightly points out, this hasn't gone great has it?

Indeed. But I cba to start it. I'm too pissed off. Maybe someone else can start it.

If there are some male guards impregnating vulnerable womem in jail, shouldn't we call for female only guards in female only prisons?

I completely understand why you are so upset OP. It seems the implications haven't been thought through properly.

Thanks rainsim I appreciate that.

If there are some male guards impregnating vulnerable womem in jail, shouldn't we call for female only guards in female only prisons?

I completely agree and I am really surprised that there aren't safeguards in prisons similar to children's homes, etc where staff must never enter a bedroom alone - it is always in pairs to protect against abuse and false allegations. And I am surprised that rape and sexual harassment by guards isn't something i've seen in reports, etc. It would have stuck in my mind i'm sure. But obviously I am not saying it doesn't happen but it has to be pretty successfully hushed up.

It makes no difference, women are raped by guards.
There have been responses like
It makes no difference, women were raped before they were imprisoned
It makes no difference their families will pick up the slack and they'll keep the babies anyway - no harm done

There really haven't been responses like this. These are minimising rape. No-one here has done that and it is pretty insulting to suggest they have. People have pointed out some true facts about the question in your OP. But no-one has minimised or said they don't think what happens to women shouldn't be discussed. They have just asked you nor to make up sensationalist stories.

People have suggested that the fact that women prisoners getting raped by guards is commonplace/ they are already victims of rape means I, personally, am merely taking issue (making a non-issue) with rapists in women's prisons because it supports my gender critical position and I don't care about them for any other reason.

That is insulting.

You are not above reproach.

You are not above reproach.

OK

You feeling insulted doesn't make it ok to misrepresent what other people are saying. And doing that doesn't help your case at all.

So what was the purpose of bringing the somewhat unsubstantiated claim that the guards commonly rape women into it, if not to minimise the importance of the new development of placing rapists in locked spaces with women (BTW I can't remember who brought that up)?

It's not unsubstantiated, and it's not exactly hard to find information on it.

www.commissiononsexinprison.org/fileadmin/howard_league/user/pdf/Publications/Women_sex_commission.pdf

amp.theguardian.com/society/2009/jul/18/female-inmate-prison-sexual-abuse

The poster who brought it up was pointing out that there is plenty of precedent for dealing with women who conceive or give birth in prison, whether through rape or otherwise, because it is already happening and has been for many years now.

Seeing as answering that question (i.e. 'what will happen to the babies?') was the stated purpose of your thread, her comment was entirely relevant and appropriate.