Who will get to keep the babies born of prison rape?

[WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice]

Since already identity is more important than sex.

When prisoners are placed in the female estate rather than the male because they identify as female, and perhaps soon natal females will be placed in the male estate because they identify as male, with rape being a fairly common crime perpetrated by people with penises (formally known as males) in prison - prisoners with uteruses (formerly known as women) will most certainly become pregnant within prison walls.

So what do we think will happen to the babies?

Will female prisoners be forced to have abortions?

Will the babies be automatically be taken into state care?

Will there be a demand for these babies because of the shortage of newborns to adopt?

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

How is this going to pan out?

What does this mean?

I am really disturbed by the fact that there are campaigns afoot to loosen our surrogacy laws as highlighted by Tom Daley. In America you can look through glossy brochures to design your baby. There is public support for allowing that kind of thing here.

I don't think that's the plan, but may end up the consequence - maybe not the money bit though - as long as adoption/surrogacy laws aren't changed to be 'less restrictive'.

Look I just don't think you understand what you're suggesting really. Or how UK family law is centred around the child.

The cheapest best option for the state when a child has to be removed from a parent (and the bar is pretty high for that) is care in the extended family.

The UK Government is not engaged in producing newborns for infertile middle class people to adopt. They just aren't. And much less for dark satanic abuse.

And adoption and surrogacy are not equivalent.

Thanks, that makes more sense about fostering. I hope babies don't go missing from there! Wonder where that came from then? America maybe?

I don't know OP. I can tell you're really, really angry about this and I get it a bit: some people are abusers, nothing is impossible, and we often find out about horrible abuses long after they happen.

However, I'm kind of with @CertainHalfDesertedStreets and @WomanWithAltitude and others here ... it's a huge, huge stretch to think that this would happen like this now in the U.K. given current safeguarding and long-term governmental approaches to adoption (i.e. babies stay with birth families - as we found out repeatedly when we looked into it).

Because it's such a hypothetical situation, it does seem sensationalist and like something that others could mock us for even talking about. Then they can mock everything else too. ("Safe spaces? Oh yes, vital, because we'd sell babies otherwise wouldn't we?" That sort of thing.)

Are there any petitions or work being done to look after women in prisons better at the moment?

That may be so, Clarice, and it would be worth discussing. But it's got bog all to do with baby farms springing up if transwomen are put in female prisons.

Honestly, you're a reasonable poster, and we all get a bit heated at times, but you've missed the mark on this one.

Is this still going?

Drop it, it's grotesque

OITNB is utterly prurient. Double fucking standards.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said rape of female prisoners by male staff is so mainstream and non-secret that it was a major plotline in a huge globally distributed TV show.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets

I honestly don't think that random worst case scenario speculation on what happens to hypothetical babies in hypothetical situations where our entire framework of safeguarding vulnerable children has apparently been torn up is hugely helpful to anyone. Least of all GC feminism.
This said it all ^

I think I'm going to back out quietly and pretend that this thread never happened.

I'm up for a discussion about women in prisons more generally though, on a new thread

What I am suggesting is this.

1. The state is taking an ideological position that being a woman can be a feeling in a man's head.
2. Rapists are being placed in women's prisons (I don't care whether they identify as transwomen or they just say they do because they are manipulative psychopaths).
3. This is a fucking insane state of affairs.
4. It will result in the state being responsible for creating unplanned life - because biology.
5. This is a complicated matter. Yes the Children's Act means the child's welfare is paramount, but do the victims of rape/their families always want to keep the child?
6. Surely this is something that should be considered around mixing the sexes of prisoners?

Well I think the bit people are finding hardie point 5.

This is a complicated matter. Yes the Children's Act means the child's welfare is paramount, but do the victims of rape/their families always want to keep the child?

And the answer is yeah. Usually they do. Because babies are babies right? The number of relinquished children is tiny. It's really really small. And those children are adopted very quickly by people who have been very thoroughly checked by social services.

I know people really want this thread to be over, but I am really struggling to find news articles about female inmates getting pregnant by male guards. There are loads of articles about female guards getting pregnant by male inmates - all US based, but radio silence about male guards getting disciplined for it.

Wtf is this so buried when it is common?

For those wanting to discuss women in prison more generally, here is a great resource. But upsetting.

www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php

This news report was the fifth hit on my google search of "how many female prisoners relations with male guards uk"

Howard LEague report on coercive sex in prison

Howard LEague report on sex in prisons

The Howard League has lots of reports on aspects of sex in prison. It isn't something that is never discussed or investigated. It's just something that not many people particularly care about, given that not many people care about prisoners full stop

I have a family member who worked as a prison doc - I think her experiences (obviously she never told me anything that would breach any confidentiality, more general observations) is what started my interest in this.

Women in prison are in general not hardened career criminals, they’re incredibly vulnerable, and have often been brought there via abuse and violence against them. They are, in effect, some of the most vulnerable women there are.

How a society treats its most vulnerable is one of the key markers of how healthy that society is. I’d love to see a thread discussing how women are treated in prison and how that relates to a range of issues - health particularly, but also safety, and the issue raised above about conceptions with guards. I know it’s not the kind of ‘cool’ subject that sells papers but I think it’s extremely important. These women have no freedom to physically move away from someone who is a threat to them. They are at the mercy of the systems set up by the state

if female prisoners are suffering under those systems then those systems are by definition problematic.

These women are the canary in the coal mine. The removal of their freedom is their punishment- the state has a duty of care to hem regarding their health and their safety. When that’s going wrong, we have a problem.

Thanks Oleannas I didn't use the somewhat obfuscating search term 'relations'.

Frustratingly the Howard League reports seem to focus only on prisoners in the male estate.

Also it says 'gay' and 'transgender' prisoners are most at risk of rape/ sexual coercion.

Why aren't people up in arms about the vulnerability of gay men in prison?

I don't what the rules are in the UK but in the US many states still allow the rapist to get custody, so maybe dad.

In many countries, it's allow normal to have area where mothers can keep their babies with them for a while. Makes sense to have them in a prison with rapists around.

Why aren't people up in arms about the vulnerability of gay men in prison?

Because gay men aren't trying to force their way in to women's spaces.

Most likely due to being an actually oppressed group.

These women are the canary in the coal mine. The removal of their freedom is their punishment- the state has a duty of care to hem regarding their health and their safety. When that’s going wrong, we have a problem.

I agree. It seems there have been a lot of positive changes in the last 20 years, less disgusting daily degredation - but it is ridiculous that half of women with custodial sentences are in there for theft. Theft! And I think 15% did it to support a male partners drug habit.

I know i'll get shouted down for this, but I see there continues to be thoughtful reports and investigations into women prisoners, measures placed and efforts to avoid custodial sentences which hit mothers/families the hardest. However, this thing of putting rapists in is ridiculous. It runs counter to all the efforts to improve things for women and families over the years. It is a massive issue. A total reversal of the small gains for women prisoners.

This is why it is such an issue now.

And since gay men are just as likely to suffer as transgender prisoners, why are there not moves to put gay men in women's prisons?

What gullible fuckwits are being manipulated into putting males into the female estate? It doesn't serve women at all. Who is pulling the strings?

In many countries, it's allow normal to have area where mothers can keep their babies with them for a while. Makes sense to have them in a prison with rapists around.

Quite. In the UK there are specialist mother & baby units to go to if they have space and you can appeal if you don't get one. What a horrendous thing to appeal - the right to be with your infant. The prison food is terrible for pregnant/breastfeeding women and the environment in understimulating for babies.

But it is a fair point - could males identify into the mother & baby unit?

Why aren't people up in arms about the vulnerability of gay men in prison?

Because few people care about criminals. They never have. Male or female.
This thread is dripping with the usual misogyny - women are poor, vulnerable things who are never responsible for their own actions.
Of course some prisoners (male and female) have been damaged by their upbringing and experiences - failed by the system if you like.
But these are adults who have made choices. They've been incarcerated due to their own actions.

You need to look at the stats on women prisoners: care leavers, victims of sexual/domestic violence, non-violent, etc, etc.

Nothing misogynistic about shining a light on the fact that women are more likely to get custodial sentences than men for non-violent crimes, and they suffer more because there is no 'wife' on the outside looking after their kids. They make up 4 times the number of self-harm incidents than men even though they are only 5% of the prison population - and this is often based on the unbearable feelings of guilt about being separated from their kids.

Because few people care about criminals. They never have. Male or female.

They seem to care an awful lot about prisoners with "an 8 inch surprise" who headbutt barmen to be able to do what ever the fuck they want so this is clearly not true.

Did you mean misandry @deydododatdodontdeydo?