Who will get to keep the babies born of prison rape?

[WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice]

Since already identity is more important than sex.

When prisoners are placed in the female estate rather than the male because they identify as female, and perhaps soon natal females will be placed in the male estate because they identify as male, with rape being a fairly common crime perpetrated by people with penises (formally known as males) in prison - prisoners with uteruses (formerly known as women) will most certainly become pregnant within prison walls.

So what do we think will happen to the babies?

Will female prisoners be forced to have abortions?

Will the babies be automatically be taken into state care?

Will there be a demand for these babies because of the shortage of newborns to adopt?

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

How is this going to pan out?

Since already identity is more important than sex.

Will female prisoners be forced to have abortions?

No. Unless sectioned under the mental health act, prisoners consent to their treatment in the same way as anyone else, and only a court order would overturn that. I cannot see circumstances, given the current laws around termination, that one could be forced,

Will the babies be automatically be taken into state care?

No. Familial options would be considered first, as for any baby leaving a prison mother/baby unit once they exceed the age to remain.

Will there be a demand for these babies because of the shortage of newborns to adopt?

Not really relevant, but yes it is easier to place very young babies than older DC. However, the mother may not wish to relinquish the child, and so fostering until she leaves prison would be a typical arrangement.

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

No, see above.

How is this going to pan out?

In much the same way as the situation for babies born to prisoners fathered by prison staff. There is a fair amount of precedent.

No. Unless sectioned under the mental health act, prisoners consent to their treatment in the same way as anyone else, and only a court order would overturn that. I cannot see circumstances, given the current laws around termination, that one could be forced

Could female prisoners refuse contraceptives then?

In much the same way as the situation for babies born to prisoners fathered by prison staff. There is a fair amount of precedent.

Why isn't this more widely known?

What about suddenly soaring rates of STDs in the female estate? Presumably, they will also come.

The whole thing is so fucking awful it makes me cry tears of impotent rage. We know men don't give a shit about working class and poor women (you know, the ones who make up the female prison population) but the posh women supporting this because it will never affect them grind my gears to infinity. Blue-haired idiots squatting real life marginalisation. Vile.

What about suddenly soaring rates of STDs in the female estate? Presumably, they will also come

And I am convinced that women prisoners are less likely than male prisoners to be believed when they report they have been raped.

It will be viewed as 'lovers tiffs' and 'they are as bad as eachother'.

Could female prisoners refuse contraceptives then?

Yes if course, unless court ordered (I don't know if that has ever happened)

Why isn't this more widely known?

Because no-one ever seems to talk about conditions in women's prisons other than in a trans context. Which is wrong. Lighting on other issues, such as conceptions in prison which are already happening, which deserve attention in their own right; only when it suits a GC agenda is wrong.

I have to say I agree with VikingVolva on this one. Theoretical problems are all very well, but it would be much less likely to happen if people gave a shit about women in prison in the first place, and I think this is where energy and focus should be.

Let's not become what we detest and zoom in on any and all possible implications of Transactivism while neglecting actual women's rights and dignity.

Why isn't this more widely known?

Cos no one gives a shit about women in prison. They are undeserving poor, junkies, whores and thieves.

Not humans.

No one sees it through the prism of the staggeringly high rate of prisoners who come from abusive backgrounds.

Of course sexual predators who identify as trans are victims.

Cos.

Well you tell me why. But let me give you a clue. Its not cos they are women.

Because no-one ever seems to talk about conditions in women's prisons other than in a trans context.

I thought conditions had improved for women since baroness Scotland looked into it...

Also it is bullshit to say this only matters to suit a gender crit agenda.

I have personally been interested in female prisoners for a number of years but I am genuinely suprised that it is commonplace for male guards to impregnate female prisoners.

When I went inside a women's prison I was touched by how young most of the women were and how they engaged in innocent flirting and teen-like romances while the female guards looked on affectionately. The feeling of them enjoying respite from the presence of men was palpable.

The atmosphere will totally change with males in there.

What FloralBunting said.

If you've been interested in it for years how come you know literally nothing about it? Down to not understanding that female prisoners retain basic human rights like being able to refuse to have an abortion/take contraception?

I am finding this thread really distasteful. You are welcome to it of course but I don't want it to go unchallenged because of lurkers.

Does anyone know what's happening/happened about the High Court Case where a transman was seeking to change the birth certificate of his child so that he would not be recorded as 'mother''?

I think the applicant was attempting to be recorded on the child's birth certificate as either 'father' or 'parent'.

I have wondered about the possible implications of this if it were successful.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3271483-Baby-could-become-first-person-born-in-England-or-Wales-without-a-legal-mother

I have to say I agree with VikingVolva on this one. Theoretical problems are all very well, but it would be much less likely to happen if people gave a shit about women in prison in the first place, and I think this is where energy and focus should be.

I've no experience while women are actually in prison but I've volunteered with groups helping women on release and it's a total shit show how they are treated. Very much unhelped by the privatisation of probation under Chris Useless Bastard Grayling.

WRT trans issues again, there is also the topic of probation hostels, which Fair Play For Women have written about.

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-community-probation-hostels-safety-concerns-women-residents-local-community/

Down to not understanding that female prisoners retain basic human rights like being able to refuse to have an abortion/take contraception?

My comment was because someone else had said up thread they thought it was more likely female prisoners would be compelled to take contraceptives. That didn't ring true, that's why I wanted to clarify.

And what the fuck makes you think I know nothing about it?

I am talking specifically about the babies who will be conceived through prison rape.

You cannot force female prisoners to take contraception.

They may not want, may refuse abortion or it may be too late for one by the time they realise they are pregnant.

I imagine, though don't have stats, that women are less likely to want to keep babies who are conceived by rape in prison than babies who are conceived in other ways.

There will be babies born in this way if rapists are put in women's prisons because they identify as women.

What will happen to those babies?

Will it be scandalous?

Will it all be brushed under the carpet?

The whole thing is so fucking awful it makes me cry tears of impotent rage. We know men don't give a shit about working class and poor women (you know, the ones who make up the female prison population) but the posh women supporting this because it will never affect them grind my gears to infinity. Blue-haired idiots squatting real life marginalisation. Vile.

@LangCleg
Janice Turner tweet:

"Elected Labour Party women’s officer denigrates vulnerable women prisoners who report sexual abuse because it was committed by a male-bodied, male-genital trans person like herself. This prisoner has now been charged. Lily Madigan should be sanctioned by the LP.

The sheer idiocy of locking natal male, genitally-intact criminals in confined spaces with women prisoners, the majority of whom have suffered sexual abuse..."

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1019929200202010624

Hear hear Janice Turner

Down to not understanding that female prisoners retain basic human rights like being able to refuse to have an abortion/take contraception?

Of course they have the right.
But in the same way we have the right to refuse medical treatment or examinations by any HCP, women are socialised to be nice and go along with what authority figures tell them to do through fear of being found difficult. This is no less true in prison.

what the fuck makes you think I know nothing about it?

Just what you've said on your thread...

What Janice said.

This is no less true in prison.

I imagine there would be considerable pressure to hush it all up.

Also I imagine there is just as likely to be stigma and victim-blaming inside as out.

That LM tweet. Holy fuck.
Is anyone still a member of the Labour Party and feel like they can complain? I have resigned my membership but I’ll be contacting my MP right now.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets

Obviously this thread has narked you, led you to draw certain assumptions, etc.

You remind me of the people back in the day saying "hypothetical examples of rapists in refuges do the gender critical position no favours" until it happened.

in the same way we have the right to refuse medical treatment or examinations by any HCP, women are socialised to be nice and go along with what authority figures tell them to do through fear of being found difficult. This is no less true in prison.

I don't disagree with that. And I can't think of a single good reason for transwomen to be housed with women beyond a basic misunderstanding of vocabulary.

But I think this thread strikes the wrong note for me. It feels prurient and a bit cheap. And I have now said that - a couple of times - so I'll leave you to it

This thread is gross.

Misery porn fantasy.

Just in case you are one of the multitudes who have been blocked by Madigan.