Who will get to keep the babies born of prison rape?

[WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice]

Since already identity is more important than sex.

When prisoners are placed in the female estate rather than the male because they identify as female, and perhaps soon natal females will be placed in the male estate because they identify as male, with rape being a fairly common crime perpetrated by people with penises (formally known as males) in prison - prisoners with uteruses (formerly known as women) will most certainly become pregnant within prison walls.

So what do we think will happen to the babies?

Will female prisoners be forced to have abortions?

Will the babies be automatically be taken into state care?

Will there be a demand for these babies because of the shortage of newborns to adopt?

Will there be a pressure on prisoners to turn a blind eye or even be complicit in baby farming to supply the demand?

How is this going to pan out?

But it tells you about BABIES. And the law doesn't have different rules for babies depending on how they were conceived!

My comment about babies being born onto abuse is because of the deviousness opportunism of some male prisoners and the gullibility of prison staff that leads to 8 year old girls getting smuggled in to be abused by dangerous offenders, Worboys being released and rapists being put in the female estate.

The same manipulation and complacency that meant Savile ended up with the keys to Stoke Mandeville and spent time alone in the morgue.

I think rapists in women's prisons are part of that whole dark world, not comparable to the issue of women arriving in prison when they are already pregnant.

OK well I hope you are reassured then by the fact that decisions about what happens to babies are not made by prison staff but by social services and ultimately judges.

OK well I hope you are reassured then by the fact that decisions about what happens to babies are not made by prison staff but by social services and ultimately judges.

So fucking patronising.

Have you ever been on a child protection panel?

Women getting pregnant as a result of being raped in prison is a pretty new thing

It's not a new thing at all

Unfortunately, men have always raped women prisoners. The thing that has changed is that the men doing the raping (or indeed having consensual sex but without protection) are fellow prisoners, not guards.

The thing that has changed is that the men doing the raping

That's a pretty significant change.

So fucking patronising.

OK. If you want to read it like that.

Have you ever been on a child protection panel?

I've got 'SAFEGUARDING' written right through me like a giant stick of rock.

Is it? There are far, far more male guards than transwomen, and male guards hold more power (that they can abuse) than inmates.

A rapist is a rapist.

News report from 2 years ago says that there are 600 pregnant women in the prison estate and 100+ give birth each year

Many of those women will be pregnant as a result of rape, especially considering the high number of female prisoners who have been victims of DV and other forms of abuse.

There is a system in place already for pregnant women - it ain't perfect (and I'm genuinely shocked that a pregnancy test isn't part of the standard booking in process), but there is no need to bang on about baby farms and other ludicrous things like that.

I wonder whether a TW prisoner who impregnates a female prisoner (either by force or consensual sex) would have any arguments to a) stay in the same prisoner as the mother and baby; and b) have access to the mother and baby unit. That's the new stuff in the situation being discussed, and I suspect that the official answer is "decisions will be made on a case by case basis" ie "we don't know - yikes"

Women needing health care, including reproductive/sexual health care, in prison is not a new thing.

Of course it isn’t a new thing, they need it and they are more often than not failed (I worked for a time providing healthcare to women who had just left prison).

I’m not getting involved in any of this baby trade thing. I know nothing about it.

I do however believe there needs to be processes put in place for dealing with and preventing straight relationships between prisoners and the biological outcome of those relationships.

There are far, far more male guards than transwomen, and male guards hold more power (that they can abuse)

They also have less to gain and more to lose.

I think it would have been useful to have a conversation about the conditions in female prisons. Abuse by guards or fellow inmates, healthcare provision, access to sexual health services, how pregnant prisoners are treated etc.

Instead we have speculation about baby farms.

There won't be a sudden spike in STDs as a pp thinks because sexual abuse is already rife in our prisons. Prisons are not safe places for women - why is no one angry about that (or even willing to acknowledge it) unless it's a transwoman doing the raping?

but there is no need to bang on about baby farms

Clearly the idea makes you all baulk. But that's what I see when rapists are locked up with vulnerable women.

I think it needs to be considered, the creation of unplanned lives because of the state embracing ideology.

The state is responsible for the creation of those lives.

Prisons are not safe places for women - why is no one angry about that (or even willing to acknowledge it) unless it's a transwoman doing the raping?

I'm fucking angry about it. I am bugged by the fact that we don't know if it's consensual. I may have rose tinted glasses from what I saw.

Women getting pregnant as a result of being raped in prison is a pretty new thing and I believe it needs exploring.

No it isn't, at all. Women have been getting pregnant by male prison staff for a long long time, and any sexual contact whatsoever between a prison staffer and a prisoner is rightly considered rape. It's so little a secret that it was a plotline on Orange is the New Black. It also happens in the 80s in the brilliant nonfiction book Random Family.

I agree that this thread is prurient and gross.

Could someone start a general women’s prison thread? It’s something I would be very interested in and certainly something I’d be happy to contribute to as someone who has worked with former offenders.

OITNB is utterly prurient. Double fucking standards.

Clearly the idea makes you all baulk

It doesn't make me baulk it's just bollocks. And ridiculous. And when framed as sexual abuse baby farms it's a really unpleasant idea. And unnecessary. And a bit weird that you came up with it tbh.

That's why everyone keeps saying this is prurient/gross/misery porn.

Clearly the idea makes you all baulk. But that's what I see when rapists are locked up with vulnerable women.

I see a breakdown in safeguarding and a prioritisation of men's feelings over women's safety. Not some plot to churn out babies for the state to sell

Ugly - I've had a female family member in prison, so it's something I'd be interested in too.

I am bugged by the fact that we don't know if it's consensual

You think a female inmate and a male guard might have a consensual relationship? Really?! The power imbalance is such that it is always abusive.

And yet upthread you were angry at the possibility of women who were abused by transprisoners not being believed, and being treated as if they were merely 'lovers'....

I'm not going to contribute to this thread any more, it's making me too angry.

But the creation of baby farms because of bio males housed in the female estate is entirely hypothetical.

The realities of women in custody while pregnant to begin with, being impregnated by male staff, receiving sub-standard care, being discounted as unimportant - these all current realities.

When we bring up the potential issues of trans offenders in female prisoners and people generally don't really give a crap, it's because they don't give a crap to begin with and has nothing whatsoever to do with trans issues.

What is the purpose of such hypotheticals when we could be discussing and publicizing the work of those who are trying to change the current situation?

The trans thing is eye catching, I get it. But it is, in this instance, very far from a clear and present danger.

Not some plot to churn out babies for the state to sell

I don't think that's the plan, but may end up the consequence - maybe not the money bit though - as long as adoption/surrogacy laws aren't changed to be 'less restrictive'.

Yy, Floral

as long as adoption/surrogacy laws aren't changed to be 'less restrictive

What does this mean?

The realities of women in custody while pregnant to begin with, being impregnated by male staff, receiving sub-standard care, being discounted as unimportant - these all current realities.

I agree. They are important.