Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

Society doesn't move on that much - you'll be told to get to fuck if you go out there trying to rule womens' sexuality AND present as a womans' replacement.

You want to be the replacement because you want the attention of hetero men, and for them to love you as women. They will be your nemesis, the sword upon which you will fall but I guess, not exactly in the way you'd like to...

Dunning Kruger syndrome in action is always quite a sight.

bet all those heterosexual men wanking themselves stupid to 2 straight women shoving various objects inside each other would disagree with you Garam. In fact, I reckon 2D + 69 = L would really piss them off.

What’s this got to do with anything? I don’t give a fuck what men wank to - there’s plenty wanking to people with dicks. So what? They’re still not lesbians.

Anyone who can watch Rapey Riley and not feel sick is suspect in my book.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but, how can we combat this unreal perception we are 'phobic'?

I think a coalition of feminists and gender critical trans people might win public opinion and 'save the day' because we need to refute the idea we are in any way phobic!

We need to show we do care about trans people, which we do. This is just my opinion, no one needs to agree with me!

I think we need to show we are caring because it is the right thing to do and not because we are socialized to care! IMHO. I think we need to campaign for third spaces.or at least some of us should.

This is a not our problem but it has become our problem.

Let's name it. This is a male problem not a trans problem. How often do we end up talking about trans men? Rarely.

But males are the problem whether they identify as men, women, straight, lesbian, nom-binary or whatever. (Yes I am mixing my sexuality with my 'gender' expression/identity.)

Males are the problem if there want access to our spaces, unwelcome access to our bodies, or to speak on behalf of us. What males are trying to do is appropriate us.

With all the identity politics, how is that not being identified?

Can we find a few slogans to sum any of that up? Or am I barking up a wrong tree?

Dunning Kruger syndrome in action is always quite a sight.

Isn't it just?!

I'm enjoying the complete disregard for conversational norms, also.

Anyway, garam: 2D + 69 = L.

Yes or no?

@ItalianGreyHound. That's a good post and sums up beautifully what the concern that everyday women have with access to their spaces and bodies. I also feel vulnerable undressing or sharing toilet facilities with men after my experiences so I will wholeheartedly back women who want these area male free.
It is mind boggling how debate online and in real life examples of this is all women shortlists with trans females on them has effectively been shut down as hate speech by this well funded crowd. Like I said in earlier posts here it was always women who were my biggest ally both as gay male or when presenting as trans. It's even gotten to the crazy stage where someone like me in my workplace could be disciplined for transphobia for using term like T.V or TS instead of TG.

garam bowing out of the thread? I eagerly await the next baity load of fresh cobblers they post with sole purpose of ignoring most replies for 10 pages and then doing a couple of sneery ranty replies replete with ominous pronouncements of clichés involving 'history' and 'tiny minority'.

It's like a revolving door round here, what with Daim flouncing and garam doing drive by sniping.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, everything that had been said in the first few pages is just being endlessly repeated like some sort of mantra of wishful thinking.

Course you're flouncing. You have run out of options.

You couldn't bring yourself to say that two men giving each other blowjobs is lesbian sex.

And of course, it's come to you in a blinding flash of clarity, that 2D x 69 = L is never, ever going to wash.

It's offensive to lesbians, gay men and straight men. Score!

Plus your bitter and resentful rant about women.

The irony of this is that feminists now realise they don't need to say a damn thing.

Just sit back, relax and let you do all the talking.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but, how can we combat this unreal perception we are 'phobic'?

Do we need to? Remember you’re talking to different groups of people. The general public, who seem to be fairly reasonable on this issue, and a small group of activists for whom NOTHING but total capitulation will do. So why do you need to counter an accusation you know isn’t true?

There’s a danger with that - when someone starts to accuse you (generic you) of transphobia it puts you on the back foot, you spend time and energy showing you’re not and it detracts from what you are actually arguing.

The thing is, that most people I think share your general view - they aren’t anti trans at all, they are concerned over very specific areas of policy and law change. Other people are concerned over the actual concepts involved but joe and Joanna public will be issue focused.

So I think we just keep up with the genuine concerns we have for women’s rights/safety/child safeguarding/prisons/etc.

None of that is transphobic. Keep the argument on what matters, keep the language factual as you can, keep the emotional tone sensible. Focus on what you’re actually concerned over. Anyone reasonable can see that the concerns are reasonable and when people start mud slinging and coming out with outrageous statements on things like males being lesbians it doesn’t detract from your argument - it detracts from theirs.

We are socialised as women to bloody apologise for our points of view all the time. Your POV seems reasonable to me - don’t expend energy apologising or tying yourself in knots trying to prove you’re not transphobic when you aren’t. Focus on the issues that matter to you.

Do we need to? Remember you’re talking to different groups of people. The general public, who seem to be fairly reasonable on this issue, and a small group of activists for whom NOTHING but total capitulation will do. So why do you need to counter an accusation you know isn’t true?

This.

Make the positive arguments you want to make and ignore the white noise of extremist ideologues.

So, it's settled then, yes?

2D + 69 ≠ L

Because if even garam cannot bring themselves to say otherwise, we have complete consensus.

Hooray!

Don’t waste your energy arguing with The Faithful. Spend it on talking to the public.

Some people’s minds you will never change. You wouldn’t argue with a religious fundamentalist - they’re never going to agree with you.

Sensible calm evidence based discussion will win this if it’s winnable. The activists are so far from the centrepoint off reason that their actions are counterproductive- as we see here all the time.

Men defending rape, men telling us that men can be lesbians, men telling us that science is wrong. The hyperbole, the flouncing, the utter hogwash and logical incoherency of it.

When someone can’t reapond calmly to an argument with facts and can only yell bigot at you, they’ve lost. If their argument stood up, they could argue it.

"So why do you need to counter an accusation you know isn’t true?"

Because I hate being lied about.

Because people lurk and read and I want them to know the truth.

Because aggressive TRAs are hiding behind genuinely dysphoric people and using them for human shields. These straight dudes will not feel the backlash. No one would even think they are trans!

It's one of the reasons I don't use the word t-phobic, just phobic because it is such a fucking stinking lie that those of us who know and care about trans people are phobic of them just because we recognize a potential threat to our safely, dignity nd autonomy when we see one!

Because the perception we are phobic might lead to some people disengaging from us

But, yes, "There’s a danger with that - when someone starts to accuse you (generic you) of transphobia it puts you on the back foot, you spend time and energy showing you’re not and it detracts from what you are actually arguing."

I can see your point.

Great post @Bowlofbabelfish

For me I think I can say "The female socialization is strong with this one!!"

To be clear I am not wanting to win over TRAs, just to not be wrongly labelled.

And I think we will see hand maidens jumping ship in the months ahead.

Even the very religious can be swung by certain arguments, it just requires one to know what to address with whom. But no, am not wasting time with hard liners just angry to be mis-represented in this way...
Angry of Mayfair!!

I think any reasonable minded person can see that we aren’t phobic. People reading these boards with even an ounce of impartiality can read posts from the likes of Garam, Snappity, and Daim, and see what they are about. That’s why transactivists have been so keen to keep this whole thing under wraps. They know full well that the vast majority of people think it’s bonkers at best, and dangerous misogyny and homophobia at worst. #NoDebate wasn’t just a tactic, it was a protection mechanism, because when them and their lies are dragged out into the sunlight, it’s very obvious what’s going on. I think in this case the oxygen of exposure is the best thing, and all we have to do is stack up our facts and our logic and reasoning, and watch the waves of #PeakTrans.
What I’d really like to hear is more from the transsexual community who are being thrown under the bus by this, but if we keep on keeping on then I think we will.
I think the most important thing to remember is that we have no control over what transactivists say or the perceptions they try to create. What they do say however is so utterly batshit that we don’t really need to. I think it’s a case of give them enough rope…
Finally, if I’m in any way phobic for stating that I am a homosexual female who is only attracted to other females, then tough shit. Anyone who thinks that is someone I don’t want anywhere near me.

A tiny minority? Only 18% of people support Self ID, and how many of them are totally unaware as to how vile TRAs are, the fact that transgender now includes transvestic fetishists?

Just in case it's interesting to anyone, there are at least two people posting as Garam, given enormous differences in syntax, spelling, style of posting and various other tells.

I feel that the female person Garam is in a sticky position. They are being gaslighted and cut off from outside influences (as they have stated on previous threads) by the trans person Garam.

The point still stands that GC women and men, straight and gay are now making more headway with the conversation in general by using factual information to overcome socialised niceties in order to see the full picture. The sad thing is that the majority of trans persons are the ones who will really suffer here, rather than the politicised and privileged AGPs who are leading the discourse in the media.

That's interesting, Melanippe.

Garam - delusional on so many levels

Garam's Paradox :

What is the solution to 2D + 69 = L?

I know I'm after the event but this is the funniest thing I've read on here in ages.

Think we can safely say nobody is going to say 2D+69=L.

Hence the flounce.

funny as fuck though.

I mean why not, though? If one vagina plus one cock can equal a "lesbian" relationship, why not two cocks? At least in the latter case the individuals involved are engaging in same sex activity.

I am going to start a real life survey - if you are watching lesbian porn, exactly how many penises are you enjoying during that experience?

2D+69=L

Only in the world of fannyphobia.

Only 18% of people support Self ID

Only 17% thought there was nothing wrong with same sex relationships in the mid-80s. Now that figure has quadrupled.